The etymology of the phrase "gun violence"

[RX-79G]

not really, im not the one thats letting them use the term "gun violence". I intentionally leave out DGUs and avoid "gun violence" statistics unless forced. Except they continue to manipulate the conversation establishing "gun violence" as the problem when its not. They dont get to use the term even when they do, it needs to be called out.

I didn't "let" anyone do anything. I'm saying that stomping your foot and getting upset at a term is a less than effective method of making someone rethink their assumptions.

I would add "It's my inalienable right!" is similarly ineffective.

 

[OldTengu]

Availability plays a part though. The problem is when we ignore a system set up intentionally to keep guns out of bad guys hands. Theres a viral thread in this forum right now discussing a bad guy who ambushed to police officers with an illegal gun... the guy had multiple violent felony convictions, and was let out on bond.

What do you do if that guy has access to a cnc machine and is trained in how to use it?

 

[Koda]

That assumes that ownership rates are similar to the number of guns, but clearly every American doesn't own 1.2 guns. I knew a guy with hundreds.

However, I don't disagree that gun ownership has little to do with violence rates, which is why I suggested economics has much more to do with it. Europeans never get quite as poor as Americans can.

agree, social, economic, geographic, country politics, and cultur all affect this situation and even though we measure violent crime per capita, that doesnt correlate to the rest of those elements.... those EU nations arent the same size and smaller cultural and social populations are easier to govern.

 

[Koda]

I didn't "let" anyone do anything. I'm saying that stomping your foot and getting upset at a term is a less than effective method of making someone rethink their assumptions.

I would add "It's my inalienable right!" is similarly ineffective.

nothing upset about my opinion. "gun violence" is a demonstrable lie. Guns dont kill anyone or cause people to kill. They just sit there. Im just pointing this out. Gun violence is a manipulative term made up by the gun control lobby and its important to refute that label.

 

[Koda]

What do you do if that guy has access to a cnc machine and is trained in how to use it?

you cant legislate criminal actions. all you can do is arrest them when we find out, its already illegal for felons to possess guns, that includes making them functional.

 

[Knobgoblin]

you cant legislate criminal actions. all you can do is arrest them when we find out, its already illegal for felons to possess guns, that includes making them functional.

On a different track, it's almost impossible to eradicate knowledge.

Information and the will to apply it ( given adequate skills and equipment) can't really be controlled.

 

[3MTA3]

FBI Stats on murder by weapon type for reference: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

Handguns were used in about 50% of all murders. Typically 2/3 all deaths where a firearm was used is a suicide, however in the last few years the gap has narrowed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

People who commit suicide will use whatever means they can find as opposed to those who attempt suicide but fail. No amount of gun control or restrictions will prevent the deaths of those who are fully committed. Only recognition and intervention along with the proper treatment can save them.

Lets look at some numbers, shall we.... from the FBI data we have a total of 10,445 murders involving a firearm, but from the NIH we see that deaths due to medical oopsies are estimated to be between 44,000 and 99,000*. May not be as sexy or frightening as a gun, but it appears you doctor is four to eight times as deadly, even worse when you consider there are oveer 430 million guns compared to 5 million doctors and nurses. so lets double that for grins and your typical health care provider is 172 to 344 times to make a lethal oopsie and award you with a toe tag than the Ruger Redhawk I sold a few years ago or the machine gun currently in my safe.

Which one seems more important to work on to you? Why is there virtually no attention to medical mistakes, especially for the gun obsessed CDC?

* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11151524/

 

[RX-79G]

nothing upset about my opinion. "gun violence" is a demonstrable lie. Guns dont kill anyone or cause people to kill. They just sit there. Im just pointing this out. Gun violence is a manipulative term made up by the gun control lobby and its important to refute that label.

Gun violence is a simple phrase that describes a subset of violence. It would only be a lie if violence rarely or never involved guns.

It is a manipulative term because of what it conjures, but that is too bad. "Eskimo cannibalism" would also sound negative, but that phrase doesn't get used because there aren't any. Since 75% of US homicides are gun homicides and the US has too many homicides, there is no lie involved in recognizing that massive subgroup.

Find a more effective way of dealing with that fact than denial.

 

[Koda]

Gun violence is a simple phrase that describes a subset of violence. It would only be a lie if violence rarely or never involved guns.

It is a manipulative term because of what it conjures, but that is too bad. "Eskimo cannibalism" would also sound negative, but that phrase doesn't get used because there aren't any. Since 75% of US homicides are gun homicides and the US has too many homicides, there is no lie involved in recognizing that massive subgroup.

Find a more effective way of dealing with that fact than denial.

Great, then I get to use "guns save lives".... or will the gun controllers find a more effective way of dealing with their denial?

 

[RX-79G]

Lets look at some numbers, shall we.... from the FBI data we have a total of 10,445 murders involving a firearm, but from the NIH we see that deaths due to medical oopsies are estimated to be between 44,000 and 99,000*. May not be as sexy or frightening as a gun, but it appears you doctor is four to eight times as deadly, even worse when you consider there are oveer 430 million guns compared to 5 million doctors and nurses. so lets double that for grins and your typical health care provider is 172 to 344 times to make a lethal oopsie and award you with a toe tag than the Ruger Redhawk I sold a few years ago or the machine gun currently in my safe.

Which one seems more important to work on to you? Why is there virtually no attention to medical mistakes, especially for the gun obsessed CDC?

What gives you the idea that nothing is done with medical stuff? Is this like asserting that no Muslims denounced 9/11?

If you think medicine is bad, consider how many people die of choking. What is the NiH and FDA doing about the dangers of solid food?

 

[RX-79G]

Great, then I get to use "guns save lives".... or will the gun controllers find a more effective way of dealing with their denial?

It would be good if that assertion had obvious data that supported it, rather than contentions claims offered by only two researchers.



I think guns save lives, too. But I don't think I could prove it in court.

 

[Koda]

What gives you the idea that nothing is done with medical stuff? Is this like asserting that no Muslims denounced 9/11?

If you think medicine is bad, consider how many people die of choking. What is the NiH and FDA doing about the dangers of solid food?

Are you actually suggesting we ignore facts and statistics 3MTA3 presented?

 

[Koda]

It would be good if that assertion had obvious data that supported it, rather than contentions claims offered by only two researchers.



I think guns save lives, too. But I don't think I could prove it in court.

plenty of obvious data to support it and from more than two researchers. I would think you would know what those are....
as opposed to the "credible" research done by Everytown, Brady, and media sources?

You seem to have a pattern of rejecting pro gun evidence, and have yet to present any argument in support of guns. How about presenting something here that supports gun rights or disproves gun control?

 

[RX-79G]

Are you actually suggesting we ignore facts and statistics 3MTA3 presented?

What statistics about the lack of oversight in medicine did he post?

 

[3MTA3]

What statistics about the lack of oversight in medicine did he post?

* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11151524/

 

[RX-79G]

plenty of obvious data to support it and from more than two researchers. I would think you would know what those are....
as opposed to the "credible" research done by Everytown, Brady, and media sources?

You seem to have a pattern of rejecting pro gun evidence, and have yet to present any argument in support of guns. How about presenting something here that supports gun rights or disproves gun control?

Why do you presume that i prefer Brady statistics? I've read many of the studies across the board and all of them - anti or pro - have major problems with how they estimate the prevalence of largely unreported events. The vast majority of gun protections don't get reported to the police and the police don't report them to anyone else.

Pretend that this isn't a question of gun rights but climate change or vaccine safety. Just how flimsy do you prefer your science and statistics?

 

[Koda]

What statistics about the lack of oversight in medicine did he post?

you seem to have a pattern of debating with fallacies, perhaps re-read his post for what your looking for.

 

[RX-79G]

3MTA3 didn't post an article about a lack of oversight, but an article estimating the number of errors. It says nothing about the NiH not doing anything to prevent medical errors.

In fact, lots of things work to lower the rate of medical errors, including the courts licensing boards, teaching hospitals, etc. Saying otherwise is a little silly, and completely unsubstantiated.

 

[RX-79G]

you seem to have a pattern of debating with fallacies, perhaps re-read his post for what your looking for.

I debate fallacies because they prevent us from moving forward. Ignorance is not bliss.

 

[Koda]

Why do you presume that i prefer Brady statistics? I've read many of the studies across the board and all of them - anti or pro - have major problems with how they estimate the prevalence of largely unreported events. The vast majority of gun protections don't get reported to the police and the police don't report them to anyone else.

Pretend that this isn't a question of gun rights but climate change or vaccine safety. Just how flimsy do you prefer your science and statistics?

DGU data is very vague and hard to quantify but there are some some studies out there that provide at least a minimum baseline. Regardless, we know for a fact people use guns to save lives, we know for a fact the gun control lobby intentionally rejects these statistics just like they claim "gun violence". its one thing to honestly admit the data is vague, its another to reject using DGUs and while letting the opposition used just as erroneous data or statements. You seem to justify using "gun violence" and while rejecting any statistics of DGUs. Have yet to see a pro gun argument from you.