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So what about using a firearm to protect a business?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by IronMonster, Oct 25, 2015.

  1. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    So as I already posted I had a pretty good fire in my shop. Sometime between Friday and today someone got in and stole some stuff. Enough that it would have taken a truck to haul it off. The crazy part is I have been sleeping less than 50 feet away in a camp trailer and never heard a thing. There have been parts of the day I have been gone taking care of other things, so it could have happened during the day. They removed a screwed up plywood door cover and replaced it when they left. (I assume because they plan on coming back and where hoping no one noticed)

    So today I installed 4 motion sensors that report to a box I have inside the trailer. They are pretty stealthy so my hope is I can catch them in the act. If I can catch them in the act the hope would be to hold them there until the police can show up. It got me thinking though what if a burglar charged me? Came at me with a hunk of steel? Its not my home and honestly I am not sure what the law says. I know I have a right to protect myself and really the last thing I want to do is shoot someone even if they are robbing me but I dont want to end up in a bad spot because I didn't know the law.
     
  2. edslhead

    edslhead Vanc Gold Supporter Gold Supporter Silver Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    If you feel threatened , let em have it, worry about yourself not the law.
     
  3. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Some years ago, the company I work at was being hit by tweakers on a regular basis. We were losing copper wire and other electrical equipment. Fences and barbed wire didn't work. Security and camera systems were worthless - we had them on camera, doing the deed, and the police knew who they were, by name. They said if they arrested them, they would simply be out the next day. I was told by a Portland Police officer that, if it were 'him' (meaning us), he would stay overnight, on the rooftop, with a gun. His partner agreed. Were they serious? I still don't know to this day, but it was an interesting conversation.

    I just did a brief search of the Washington state code. From what I read, you're allowed to use reasonable force (there's a big gray area for you) in the defense of persons or personal property. I don't see that that personal property has to be at your residence, so it would appear you can protect your personal property elsewhere too.

    Here is one excerpt - of course it would be best to consult someone with real expert legal advice. I wonder if @Monica Cowles might be familiar with the Washington state law concerning self defense of persons and property and would care to weigh in?

    9A.16.110
    Defending against violent crime — Reimbursement.

    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW9.94A.030.
     
  4. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    No arson, I am a victim of my own negligence
     
  5. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    It's a stand your ground state - just don't shoot them in the back
     
  6. SHPD_Retired

    SHPD_Retired Saint Helens Well-Known Member

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    What you really have to worry about is being able to convince a Grand Jury that you were in fear for your life. If you can do that then you will be ok. Most District Attorneys take any shooting to a Grand Jury, even though he can decide to prosecute or not in these matters.
     
    blackadder likes this.
  7. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Have the insurance company reimburse you for a security company to guard your property.

    Also, try using screws in the plywood that have an oddball type screw bit to remove them, like those special deck screws by Outlaw.


    Outlaw-Fasteners-Triple-Hex-Fitment.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  8. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    So the cop was just here taking a police report. I told him I was armed and would be spending the night and was hoping to catch them in the act. He said "You have a right to protect your property, but don't shoot someone running away or with their back to you. If he comes toward you after you tell him clearly to stop and get on his knees it's on". He also said if you call 911 and tell them you are holding a man at gunpoint they will tell you to put the gun away before the cavalry shows up for fear you will be mistaken for the bad guy
     
  9. Deebow

    Deebow Portland Well-Known Member

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    1-- Use the gun to protect yourself. You are worth it, not the dirt-bags stealing your things and your livelihood.

    2-- Shooting someone in the back is not bad. People get hit in the side and back all the time in gunfights as they fall through the bullets you are shooting at them. It is physics, so that tells me that the cop you talked to don't know diddly about what actually happens in a gunfight.

    3--You are not required in any way to do anything the dispatcher tells you. The person on the other end of the phone isn't there to tell you what to do, they are to direct the police to your location and advise them on what is taking place. If you find yourself dealing with the break in, call 911 AFTER you have fought your fight. Fight your fight first.

    My phone hand doesn't work nearly as good as my gun hand.

    Oh and when they get there it should be one story, END OF STORY.
     
    Slobray, DuneHopper and Stomper like this.
  10. David Bowman

    David Bowman Beaverton OR Archer Defense Concepts

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    Get some training so you can be prepared for these events.

    Call 911 after you are done fighting. You can't hold a phone and talk on it while getting a solid firing grip on your gun, lining up the sights and possibly holding a flashlight and protecting yourself.

    Fight the fight you are in, not the next one.
     
  11. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    my opionion is there isnt a difference if your protecting a buisness or your home, your either in fear for your life or not.

    but what I suspect your really asking about is making a citizens arrest, that is the law you should be looking into if you want them arrested.

    personally, in my own study of self defense laws I wont be making a citizens arrest... too much liability. Catching a burgler in the act though is pretty clear cut, but I still wouldnt do it unless I felt I could physically detain them I wouldnt "hold" anyone at gunpoint... too much liability.
     
  12. pchewn

    pchewn Beaverton Oregon USA Well-Known Member

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    The grand jury usually does not have a chance to hear the defendant's story. The DA presents his side of the story and the Grand Jury decides. The defendant never usually appears before the Grand Jury.

    So "being able to convince a Grand Jury" never happens. The person you need to convince is the DA, or later, the actual jury at trial....
     
  13. cascadianliberty2012

    cascadianliberty2012 DPR Portland Well-Known Member

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    Life, liberty, and property. The three things we should defend.

    Here's another perspective on why lethal force should be used to deal with thieving scum: Let's say you own a shop, it's your livelihood, everything you are worth. If you don't defend what is yours, you very well might end up losing your business, on the street, depressed, suicidal, etc. (downward spiral). So, if you use force to defend your property, you very well might be defending your life.
     
  14. SHPD_Retired

    SHPD_Retired Saint Helens Well-Known Member

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    If there is a fatal shooting then the defendant does testify. I know from experience.
     
  15. ZigZagZeke

    ZigZagZeke Eugene Silver Supporter Silver Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    I had a friend who had a cyclone fencing business that had the same situation. He bought a 200 pound german shepherd and put him inside the shop overnight. After a few days he came in one morning to find the dog sitting on the floor, patiently watching a bleeding man who was standing on top of a locker to escape the dog.
     
  16. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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  17. Velzey

    Velzey Estacada, Oregon Gunsmith Gunsmith Bronze Vendor Bronze Supporter

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    If they are coming at you with a hunk of steel you shoot them....


    Someone here mentioned getting some training? That would be the same type of training to defend your home or workplace I assume...
    James approves tho! And we know James is the best trainer there is!! image.jpg
     
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  18. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Just remember, you are only allowed to use a Glock 19 ;)
     
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  19. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    After you throw it on the floor and kick it accross the room to prove you're not in love with your kit. o_O
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
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  20. DuneHopper

    DuneHopper Douglas County. Well-Known Member

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    Put a cot in the shop, its now a place you could sleep. They come back tell the cops you went out for a piss came back they were there. I know around here some umm creative means to justify have been used.

    But as many have said do not shoot if they are fleeing, that there is a major prosecutors dream especially those like Prozanski . So think about the fact he is a Prosecutor and if you faced him how would you have done what you did ?