Smokers need not apply

[Mikej]

Disagree.... This is a wonderful time to be young. The opportunities are more diverse and the economy is booming. We older people need to shut up and stop ruining it for them. Their world is complex enough w/o all the screaming about Climate Change, looming war, disaster this or that, coming economic collapse, divorce rate, murder rate, etc etc etc. In the 60s and 70s, kids wanted to drop out, now we are engendering the same in today's kids. Just stop it!

But, but, what about all the terrible things trump has done to ruin America?

I might be missing something? I disagree. I really hope I'm wrong, but it looks to be much harder for a person to get out of the house without parents help now. I moved out when I was 20, with my girlfriend. I happened to be between jobs and was on unemployment for about a six moth period at the time. Rent was $110.00 a month for a basement apartment. I was getting $89.00/week and the girl was waiting tables at $1.90/hour + tips. Utah didn't pay minimum wages to waiters, they would tax on tips up to the minimum wage. What kind of a job does a 20 YO have to have today to rent a studio apt. for $1,200.00-$1,600.00 a month? And if you're not moving in with the partner type person and need two bedrooms? Looks pretty bad to me.

 

[PenTurner]

In regard to the idea employers can dictate what you as their employee can legally do or not on your off hours like shoot guns is within their purview.

It isn't.

No one cares to challenge their boss if they depend on their paycheck, but if they have other means, they could fight this over bearing nonsense. If on off hours 3 (or more) employees automatically constitutes a company event is utter nonsense and is edging into Orwellian-think.

Presumably, if 3 or more get together for a bar-b-que say or went bowling the boss thinks they're creating a company event? Thus, the group is constrained to his whim when they're not on the clock or company premises?

Balderdash! (love that word)

No, but if you are willing to let him unreasonably dictate the warp and weft of your lives, ok, it's your paycheck.

Or consider a discreet phone call to the National Labor Relations Board alerting them to his practices. It might then bring it to a screeching halt.

This authoritarian bs wouldn't hold up in court.

I recall my former company, now many moons ago, who insisted the hourly people come in early and stay late by as much as 2 hours per day. This practice went on for over 2 years.

Somebody made a call to the NLRB about it and all the accumulated overtime had to be paid to the employees and the practice of not paying for it...ceased abruptly.

Thank you for your reply, and I agree with you. At the time, I was furious, and started seriously looking for work else where. A few months later the director left the company. Then last January, my manager and I were laided off. Since then the company has had several more large layoffs and now only has about one third of the employees working there. Out of the few dozens of employees I used to interact with, only one still remains there. It is kind of a toxic envirnment, and I am glad to be working somewhere else, lol.

 

[slimmer13]

It isn't a hard concept. If I own a business and person x will make me $50/hr and their total compensation costs me $30/hr, I profit $20/hr. But person y's total compensation is $40/hr, due to higher insurance premiums and lost productivity, and I only make $10, do I have a right to not hire that person?

 

[bbbass]

What kind of a job does a 20 YO have to have today to rent a studio apt. for $1,200.00-$1,600.00 a month?

Move. There are places where the cost of housing is still only 1/4 of income, just like it always has been. Nobody is guaranteed to be able to stay in a high cost zone like the coastal areas of the U.S....

The conditions you speak of are nothing new. In New York City, it has always taken more than 1 income to rent a place. My dad had 5 other workers in his apt when he was transfered there. In Los Angeles County, Vietnamese families would live 5 families to a house until they got enough money ahead to move one family out.

When I was 17, my mom and dad moved to New York and left me behind before I graduated high school. I paid $75/mo rent on a part time income. Once I graduated, I moved from Ontario to Pomona into an apt that cost $125/mo. But my dad had arranged for me to have full time employment at the phone company making $4.75/hr or $190/wk. Yah, parents need to help their kids, but not by having them live at home. Not by telling them they can't make it in today's world. Not by telling them they will never have it as good as we had it. Young people are making livings snowboarding, EBay, blogging, YouTube, internet sponsorships. We need to stop advising them because we don't comprehend the opportunities available and we are, frankly, depressing both them and the market. Depriving them of drive. Killing their spirit.

I'm tired of hearing the whining about $1200/mo rent. Young people starting out have always had to share costs to get started. But people that expect to live on min wage are going to be hard put to live as an adult. Shoulda done a better job getting a career. Let's round off to $4000/mo income needed for a 1/4 of income ratio. That's $48,000/yr income. Not much in today's world unless one is counting on making it on $12/hr... (Note: median Portland income is $53,000/person, median family income in U.S. is $75,000)

Speaking of which, I was reading a story yesterday morning about a young immigrant fellow living in the Santa Barbara area. If you know anything about that area, it is a very high cost of living place to be, or not be. The median price of a home there is $1,200,000 compared to $200,000 in the USA as a whole. Anyway, this young man was living in a frat house and wondering why University students didn't have nicer places to stay, beyond the fact that they tear them up, etc. So he gets family and other investors to loan him the money, and he buys a run down empty apt building for $1.3M and puts another $450,000 into renovations. He then goes back to the bank, it appraises for $5.8M, he borrows against the equity and he does it again. Ten years later, at the age of 30, he owns $130,000,000 in property and has a huge income. He rents frat rooms out for $6000/mo. Soooooo, is he a unique success story, or is he part of the gentrification problem?

Which guy do we want our kids to be? The guy that figured out how to do real estate investing, where I made my portfolio in the 70s, or the guy whose parents told him he could work his way thru school by working at McD on his way to a degree in Social Justice?

 

[Mikej]

Soooooo, is he a unique success story, or is he part of the gentrification problem?

^^^? Yes. Probably a very smart man that could come up with a sale-able idea and make bank doing many things. Not everyone has that going for them.

I understand what you are saying, but still don't believe it can compare with when I was that age. For one HUGE thing, people could get many more/better jobs by selling themselves to a potential business owner. Now most employers think they can get a top notch employee only hiring college degrees kids. Some of the least intelligent people I know are college grads. they were able to do the work for the degree, but not able to do the work. If you know what I mean.

 

[bbbass]

Some of the least intelligent people I know are college grads. they were able to do the work for the degree, but not able to do the work. If you know what I mean.

I think I do.... biz owners constantly complain that the college grads don't really know their field, and don't really want to work... they say they will sit there and not do anything unless they are constantly told what to do and pushed.

I've done technical work with my hands all my life with a few sorties into the biz world in between. I never expected for it to be otherwise. My dad told me to go to college or go to work... I wanted the $$$ so I went to work. But what dad didn't tell me, and I think he didn't know, is that it was impossible to get into management (clean work) w/o a college degree. I found that to be true. Today's younguns seem to all want to sit at a desk and do clean work. Yet there are many good paying jobs working with one's hands. These jobs require a skill, not a college degree.

 

[MannyGlocks]

There's a certain amount of: As a very young person, I have enjoyed a high standard of living all me days and I expect the same when I leave the nest....

Nope.

Wrong.

And your parents should've taken the time to school you in what to expect once you become a fledging adult.

You aren't owed: A late model car you didn't pay for. Money in the bank you didn't earn. Vacations. A high salary with your brand spanking new job and a nicely appointed corner office.

Sorry chum the world doesn't work that way and btw, pitch those 'participation trophies' they make you look ridiculous...

If, you work smart and with great diligence by middle age you may (or not) earn the above listed niceties of life, but you don't simply inherit them by virtue of your being you...

Now, bring me my coffee with a little splash of honey and a dash of cream, chop chop, be quick about it!

Damn entitled little snowflake tried to sit in my beautiful, custom made, leather upholstered chair....arrrghhhhh!

 

[CountryGent]

Disagree.... This is a wonderful time to be young. The opportunities are more diverse and the economy is booming.

^. This. Unemployment is at the lowest level in over half a century (last time it was at 3.5% was 1969). We're watching the longest bull market run in human history. Never before have we been more connected to find opportunities in training and employment. At no other time in US history has there been more social safety nets for those that fall down and need help getting back on track. At no other time was there more availability of good savings and investment vehicles to build up assets.

 

[bbbass]

^. This. Unemployment is at the lowest level in over half a century (last time it was at 3.5% was 1969). We're watching the longest bull market run in human history. Never before have we been more connected to find opportunities in training and employment. At no other time in US history has there been more social safety nets for those that fall down and need help getting back on track. At no other time was there more availability of good savings and investment vehicles to build up assets.

Well said!

This guy has it down too:

The Old American Dream is that you go to college, get a degree, go directly into a well-paying job in your field, work there for 30 years, then get a pension plan and a Rolex when you retire.

The problem there is that none of the people offering those jobs planned ahead. They fell into the same trap that many state and local governments fell into: overburdening themselves with lavish retirement plans instead of spending that money on innovation and efficiency.

The New American Dream is a version of the entrepreneurial journey that is unlike anything that has ever existed before. The barrier to entry to becoming an entrepreneur is literally the lowest it's ever been right now. Why America Is Still the Land of Opportunity

There's an 8yr old Asian boy making big bucks as an internet star. There are others doing things I never dreamed of. I made 1/2M in real estate in 1975 at 30yrs old. I made $100,000 profit in real estate in one year in Bend in 2005. Those opportunities still exist! And there are endlessly more!!! We're not that special. We don't have brains that others don't have. If we can do it, anybody can do it! But people are afraid to try, lazy, wrong priorities, getting bad advice, or don't know where to get good advice.

 

[E4mafia]

But, but, what about all the terrible things trump has done to ruin America?

I might be missing something? I disagree. I really hope I'm wrong, but it looks to be much harder for a person to get out of the house without parents help now. I moved out when I was 20, with my girlfriend. I happened to be between jobs and was on unemployment for about a six moth period at the time. Rent was $110.00 a month for a basement apartment. I was getting $89.00/week and the girl was waiting tables at $1.90/hour + tips. Utah didn't pay minimum wages to waiters, they would tax on tips up to the minimum wage. What kind of a job does a 20 YO have to have today to rent a studio apt. for $1,200.00-$1,600.00 a month? And if you're not moving in with the partner type person and need two bedrooms? Looks pretty bad to me.

Depends on area. Like most places here in hillsboro are commanding 1200 for the same dumps i've seen as a kid growing up. Thats just the rent we haven't factored in utilities and other cost of living yet. All for a 600~sqft apartment locked in the "ghetto" of H town. They look exactly the same as when I was 6 years old (im 33 now) at most maybe a new coat of paint and a new carpet?. Most jobs in the area are paying about the state min wage which is $12.50 (set to increase to $13.25 by july 1st 2020). The good jobs aren't as common but they are there, mostly like Intel in the area has the best paying rate for an entry level position usually around the $16 - 20 mark. But since Intel has so many qualified people and thousands of applicants a day getting in is no easy task.

My parents were terrified that I was going to be another parasite at home until his 30's just because I goof'd off in high school and played more video games than normal but I think I turned out alright. Had to keep reinforcing it to them about the current economy and market since neither of them work anymore and haven't had to find a new place in over 20 years before they could semi understand. Before they thought I could carry myself fine off $12 an hour but had to reflect to them that this isn't the pre 2000 market anymore.

Whats left outside that is the medical sector if you are schooled in it or perhaps the automotive and shops if you are skilled. Trades come next.

Funny thing is I know two people, one is a welder and makes bank. The other works in a shop and both are complaining about housing prices and even went on to say guys who make $16.00 an hour are barely cutting it for places to live and I agree. Not advocating for the $15 an hour meme but we've really had a problem with wage stagnation as the demand for labor and duties have increased. Some people just get priced out of their areas that they were raised in all for benefit of state growth. Luckily i've found a nice little spot to call home for now until future plans and assets/funding allows me to finally call something home but there is certainly no guarantee I won't get priced out and is constantly worrying me, my boss even sends me email alerts about rent rates and the upcoming year by year % increase they can impose which I then budget accordingly.

I've even found it funny when people I know who work at intel and have been for years are complaining about prices when they've got 2 new cars a nice place and that whole designer interior plus yearly trips. Anyways point being is I feel some in my generation see through the games BS and why bother? Others can be outright lazy and want to live off their parents as long as possible ( I do know a couple like this, good people otherwise). I've had my days but I figure if you keep applying yourself eventually it should pay out.

 

[bbbass]

If the economics and job market don't work where one is at, move. We are not chained to a place by birth, or circumstance!

I have a worthless grandson that was recently fired for not showing up at work. He has a very poor work record. Now on top of it, he got kicked out of his house by his wife. He can't find a job and won't leave the area because he wants to be around his kids. Has this never happened to a man before? He needs to move and get a job so he can pay that child support x4... There is work for him in Alaska or Wyoming but he won't go.

 

[CountryGent]

The ability and willingness to relocate is indeed part of the mix. The school district my wife teaches in the poverty rate is over 90%. There are good paying jobs in the area, but for a young person setting out, well, they likely have to move.

 

[DLS]

... but for a young person setting out, well, they likely have to move.

And this has been true since antiquity. Heck, this country was populated by folks moving for a number of reasons, but the primary one was economic.

I challenge anybody to show a time in the history of humankind where moving due to economic reasons was NOT common or necessary. Remember, even back in the nomad era, they were nomads for a reason … and it was economic.

 

[raftman]

Disclaimer :
I am a non smoker.

A company should be able to have a policy or a set of rules that governs the workplace / workday.
However....

What I do in my off hours is my business....and I should not have to answer to my boss.
What if this was a policy of :
We will not hire gun owners....

I understand :
The health risks of smoking...
Loss of productivity during a smoke break or the sneaking of the same...
The potential "PR" loss when a non smoker customer has to interact with a smoker...
Insurance coverage...
That some things that I do in my after work hours will affect my workplace performance or even the safety of others...

But with all that said...
Its my life after I clock out...and as much as I like my job....stay out of my home life.
Andy

This perspective makes sense, but I am curious what you'd make of the counter argument that free markets would keep many (not all) companies from being too invasive into the off-duty lives of their employees. That is, many potentially well-qualified, driven people might be pushed away by oppressive rules and this would actually end up hurting the company. An employer who doesn't intrude into your off-duty life would attract more employees.

 

[ar addict]

Ok, collage degree $100,000 ( just guessing), pay min wage and up.
Six weeks driving school $5,000 ( again guessing) class b, hazmat and tanker.
Start $18.00 plus, sign on bonus, vacation, maybe health ins.
1 But you can't smoke or use your phone on duty.
2 Need to show up on time.
3 Maybe even work a little.
I guess lines 1,2,3, above are asking way too much of employees.


I forgot #4 pass random drug test.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

This perspective makes sense, but I am curious what you'd make of the counter argument that free markets would keep many (not all) companies from being too invasive into the off-duty lives of their employees. That is, many potentially well-qualified, driven people might be pushed away by oppressive rules and this would actually end up hurting the company. An employer who doesn't intrude into your off-duty life would attract more employees.

I have no idea...

I do know that I do not like folks telling me what to do....
And the idea of my employer dictating to me , just what I may or may not do , after my work hours , just ain't going to happen.
Andy

 

[bbbass]

This perspective makes sense, but I am curious what you'd make of the counter argument that free markets would keep many (not all) companies from being too invasive into the off-duty lives of their employees. That is, many potentially well-qualified, driven people might be pushed away by oppressive rules and this would actually end up hurting the company. An employer who doesn't intrude into your off-duty life would attract more employees.

I'm thinking of Google... they really spoil employees with all kinds of perks! But I would paint them with a broad brush ideologically as the type that tell people what they can't do... I wonder. Doesn't seem to be a shortage of people that want to work there.

 

[bbbass]

This fellow names Political views (at Apple, Google, etc) as more of an issue than smoking:

The short answer is no it's not a problem. Unless one smokes to excess, 30/40 cigarettes a day type of thing.
And even then I'm unsure if it's a problem.
Issues such as:

• Personal hygiene (body odour)
• Personal appearance (tattoos on your neck/face/hands)
• Political views (name your extreme)

Would be more problematic.
Smoking wouldn't. Just don't blow the smoke in people's faces
And all of that other obvious etiquette type of stuff!

ROFL!!!!

 

[E4mafia]

I'd have to ask. how does one with no economic or social means just move to a brand new area and start anew if they have 0 job prospects or skills or even demand in the area they are in? I hear this tossed around a ton like people can just teleport to a job and que the movie montage where in just 5mins they've completely 180'd their life back to middle class. Say we are talking about someone with no means of transportation, 0 in the bank, an average resume thats not even landing jobs at a gas station and education is high school diploma. Without begging for rides and relying upon someone else to get their foot in the door how do you go about reversing course?. (Bonus points) its the middle of the 2008 recession and nothing is hiring.

I do believe there is just waaaay to much corporate protectionism in the sense that they can get away with murder on the work force and always got a policy to protect them from failing. I get it jobs are important and bring money to the area they are in and within the state along with employing people to put money back into the economy which is good but really I think people give corporations way to much leeway with how they can operate and how their employees are neglected. Again not advocating for communism/socialist as those wish to make jobs even more scarce and pay higher for just one or two employees while everyone else gets cut because a job cannot afford head count.

One guy wants to empower corporations so much to become its own state
The other wants to empower the "people" which becomes its own entity and forces jobs to relocate

What I am asking for is where is the specific place in the US I could move where I wouldn't have to worry about lobbyists and socialists making life more complicated than it needs to be when life is already as rough as it needs to be with trial and error. To be clear not asking for free hand outs or the "ME ME ME" whiny millennial thing just asking a simple hypothetical question. Oh and they would allow you to keep the 2A obviously and very low taxes.

 

[CoastRange57]

Now most employers think they can get a top notch employee only hiring college degrees kids. Some of the least intelligent people I know are college grads. they were able to do the work for the degree, but not able to do the work. If you know what I mean.

You can chalk that up to the rise of these to all the cereal box on line degree programs, where virtually anyone can get a college degree and NEVER show up on campus. I left college a bit early foolishly I might add with a year left on my agricultural engineering degree, intending to go back and finish. In those days, (1980) you actually had to go to class, go to labs, work internships and treat it as a 6 hour a day job, plus working nights. I came home, got a "temporary" job driving fuel tankers making decent money, met the first wife, got married and had our first kid.

You can guess the rest of the story of course. The wife did not want to move to Corvallis for a year for me to finish. OK. So option # 2 was to finish my commercial pilots license and get a job flying. Wife said it was too dangerous for the family. OK. Kept driving trucks, and ended up divorced a few years later. Stepped up in jobs to a equipment sales position and did ok, nothing spectacular but still hard to make a living and support three kids. I applied for lots of upper level jobs, but lacking that college degree, but with more experience I was still pretty much sent to the second pile of resumes all the time. It was very frustrating.

Got tired of that, went to night school for three years and got a AA in Business Administration. That helped a bit, but I struck out on my own in the construction business and there I stayed for about 25 years. None of it matters anymore, as I am semi retired and will have an OK retirement with some trade work and real estate I invested in several years ago.

The opportunities that are out there for today's young people are without a doubt some of the best times you could eve hope for. Education be it college, or in my opinion, the trades are where it is at now, some level of post secondary high school is going to be required to survive in today's job market. 3 of my five kids did the military thing and turned 4 years into paid for college degrees, homes and good work ethics.