Smokers need not apply

[gmerkt]

Thought provoking conversation.

I'm doing some construction work at a R&D site.
Smoking is strictly verboten.
There are two workers that slip out for very long walks to secretly "burn one".
This happens several times a day.

You simply lose production when you have smokers on the team.

When I worked at the Big B I noted that there were people who left the workplace to go outside for a smoke break about every hour. Each smoke break took about 10 min.
10x8=80 min every day spent in non-productive (and arguably destructive) activity.

I used to see this frequently when I was working, but over time it started to taper off as people gave up smoking. BUT: On-the-clock cyber theft of company time has more than made up for time-wasting smoke breaks. You can't blame Amazon for banning their warehouse employees from bringing smart phones to work.

A few years ago I went shooting at my club with a couple of interns I was mentoring and got reamed by the director. I was told he would let it go this time because I did not know it was wrong, but if he found out I went shooting with other company employees again, I would be fired. He claimed that because I was shooting with 2 other employees, it would be considered a company event if anyone was hurt. That it did not matter, even if it was after hours or on a weekend, that the company could still be held liable.

My manager was also chastised for sky diving with other company employees for the same reason.

I didn't know this.

not retiring

When I retired, I was very happy to give up my slot to a younger worker.

3. Teaching children they can be "anything they want to be, regardless of real world consequences"; without teaching discipline/that there are consequences

One of my brothers-in-law was a very liberal educator. He raised his two kids in this manner. What he wound up with is two kids with artsy would-be vocations that don't make money. His daughter won't talk to him because he asked for repayment of money he advanced her for student loans. The other one, well, it would be impolitic to discuss here how his son turned out.

That, barring some unfortunate accident or criminal action, I and nobody else am responsible for my life.

Agreed but don't leave out potential health issues.

the power of compound interest over time.

All well and good so long as the purchasing power of the US dollar keeps up.

 

[bbbass]

Agreed but don't leave out potential health issues.

Too true!

I am trying to forget how I had to give up my $150,000/yr Home Inspection biz, and my $80,000/yr communications consulting biz because of health issues. $230k in a rural area doing biz with low overhead = not bad. After trying my hand at delivering RVs for per mile fees, and a stint as Rep for Air Life of Oregon medical evac (Lifeflight type org) for $18/hr salary, at 50yrs old I went back to my old employer in two way radio and started doing work I never thought I'd have to do again (climbing radio towers and doing radio installations ) for a wage that started at $9/hr and peaked at $16/hr ($33,000/yr) at the time. I was laid off at age 60 due to inability to perform, both mentally and physically, yet I could not get disability because I don't fit the narrow definitions the Feds provide. Boo hoo.

So yeah, this boomer got out of the way too. I can hear the young people cheering from here!!!

I have two 20/something neighbors that just graduated from a 4 yr college. They don't seem to feel that their lives or financial future is limited. She with a degree in Psychology, and he just starting as an Apprentice Plumber. He was a blog writer and realized there wasn't any future locally as a writer, so he got himself a trade. When he finishes, he will make $80,000/yr in an area where jobs are scarce. Good choice!! They don't know anything about my work history or finances, but they feel bad for my physical issues. I wonder if they blame me for not getting out of the way soon enough???

 

[DLS]

...All well and good so long as the purchasing power of the US dollar keeps up.

Agreed, but if the dollar tanks you are still better off with a couple million in your retirement account than those who don't have that much (or any). Also, in today's age of technology diversification in off shore opportunities and hard asset investing is cheaper and easier than ever.

As a side note / addition to an earlier post:

I've done debt consolidation / bankruptcy avoidance mentoring for years. The folks I typically see in trouble are the 40+ year old people that are just now bothering to see what their vaunted Social Security and pensions will really pay (rather than pay attention to these things from the time they enter the work force). I have little patience for guys my age (early 60's) who bubblegum and moan that the "little man" gets it in the end and rail against all sorts of "types" (like "the rich", or government, or "evil big business", or ???) because they do not have enough to retire at the level they wish to live.

How is it the governments fault, or the rich man who screws others fault, or the economy's fault (whatever that is) etc. etc. etc. It's their fault if they never set aside anything (or not enough) and expected things like Social Security and company funded pensions to float their retirement boat at a level that will allow them to live at the level they want.

 

[E4mafia]

Good thing I quit smoking. Now I can have a promising career at Uhaul!

 

[Mark W.]

I drive Dump Truck for a paving co we run 20 full line Dump trucks and have been told for 7-8 years now NO SMOKING IN THE TRUCKS.................LOL we have guys who smoke constantly in their truck. Luckily its getting to be fewer and fewer I don't work in the Winter (let the younger guys with family make what they can more then unemp.) so since I have one of the newer trucks and it pulls better then most. Guys tend to try to use my truck when I am off. I have told the whole herd of them if I get in my truck and it smells like an ash tray I'm going to hide a dead fish in theirs. Seams to be working.

 

[CoastRange57]

When I still had my business going, no smoking / tobacco use was the rule. My company, my trucks, my shop, my job sites. Most were schools and parks where smoking was banned anyway by local laws . A lot of BOLI / prevailing wage jobs where we were subject to the generals rules too and that was no tobacco use, drug testing for EVERYBODY in the company including our office staff 200 miles away. Not a problem ever. Shovel boys made minimum of $ 47 per hour on those jobs, they loved them.

I was a partner in a consulting business about 20 years ago as well, and we worked with company's, primarily service based / construction business where billable hours was king. These companies often had efficiency issues and other operational problems that was transferring and manifesting itself in low or now profits. We had a financial process where were were able to identify all the companies costs both direct, indirect and overhead and use a quantifier utilizing the production hours that all employees work. We then looked a a companies efficiency and time management practices and invariably were able to find the morning smoke and joke sessions at the 7 /11 before they went to the job. 3 guys times 15 minutes. 45 minutes. 2 guys dicking off smoking outside break times 40 minutes each per day, 80 minutes. 2 guys on their phones 20 minutes each per day, 40 minutes. So we had a total of 2.75 hours minimum lost time on that crew alone conservatively estimated per day.

So that gives us a total time loss of 13.75 hours per week, at a per man hour COST of say $ 45 per man hour. $ 618 per week COST. No profit made on those hours either so we have a lost opportunity cost of 30% net profit on that $ 618 cost of $ 185.00. Total loss per week of $ 803. $ 3,452 per month loss. Now where the hell are you going to get that back at ?

The estimators and project managers would have the project bid at 7 production hours per man per week for that crew total of 105 hours. But since the crew boss was one of the lazy azzs and would not keep them on task, they could not make the projected budget hours and fell behind by 3 or more hours each day. 20 hours by the end of the week, 80 or more hours per month, so a half a person wasted time, and they just kept losing money.

I imagine we would have to completely rework that whole matrix with how people are so addicted to their gdamn phones, those losses would have to be double the smoking loss.

 

[ar addict]

I imagine we would have to completely rework that whole matrix with how people are so addicted to their gdamn phones, those losses would have to be double the smoking loss.

+1 on that
I am a business owner and a smoker.
As a employee there are places you can not smoke.
You get a break 10, noon, and 2.
any other smoke break you are stealing my time, you are fired.
As of today nobody has been fired for smoking.
Cell phones, your mother, wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend and kids will live until you get home.
Facebook, text, twitter, shopping, even Northwest Firearms not allowed.
7 people have been fired after several warnings.
I expect that number to grow, as there are no more warnings.
and I will check your postings and times tonight.

 

[trevi]

Smokers also have a higher accident rate, that is why non-smokers pay reduced premiums for auto insurance. Nicotine and the lower levels of saturated oxygen in a smoker's blood reduces visual acuity and slows reaction times. For these reasons alone I can't understand why some serious shooters smoke.

This is correct, but my auto insurance never asked if I smoked. I want to save more money!!!

 

[Pete F]

As a smoker who has quit several times, I have a different view. I have been using nicotine since I was in the womb. Smoking during breaks and lunch hurts no one but me. I would have no problem paying a higher insurance premium if required and it was fairly distributed to all high risk behaviors.

Second hand smoke is complete BS. I am a considerate smoker.. I am careful not to smell like smoke when I returned to work - yes there are ways including simple things like washing your hands. I move to a place that my smoke will not waft over to someone else. I don't smoke in my car or house and don't like the smell of cigarette smoke while I am eating or in an enclosed space.

So what did the company do? They crammed all of the smokers into a small mostly enclosed/covered space making all of us smell like an ashtray on inclimate weather days. I would find another spot offsite to avoid it.

If you want to talk about wasting the company's time, think about all of the Starbucks crowd that stand in line to get their coffee and can't possibly be working to their best while drinking it.

I will try to quit again soon, but my opinion will remain the same even when i do quit. I am tired of all of the laws and requirements. I pay taxes like most everyone else and if I want to light up in a city park it should be my right. Try walking around Portland without stepping on "No Smoking Ground."

 

[CountryGent]

Insightful post @Pete F. Even though I no longer smoke cigarettes, having given it up decades ago, I agree with you on all the restrictions, stigma, and related BS is annoying. Regarding second hand smoke, my training and experience is not in medicine, but other fields. I have, however, seen studies that indicate it isn't as nearly as bad as previously thought. For example, Forbes published an article about a large scale study, originally published in the peer-reviewed Journal of the National Cancer Institute, that could find no link between said and cancer. (But, as said, I am not a physician, so do no feel qualified to opine further.)

While some would write off the phrase "considerate smoker" as a useless euphemism, I disagree. I've known enough over the years that are exactly that. My wife and I have very close friends that three of us (me, wife, and her husband) don't smoke, but the other wife does, or at least did; she now vapes. She was always considerate and I respect that. Ditto an aunt of mine that did great work in her given field and is now retired. For that matter, I enjoy the occasional cigar, but it is always outside, away from my family, and ofttimes in the forest all by myself.

 

[BrandonQuixote]

It's their business. They can and should be able to be as prejudice as they please. If they only want ripped 6'5 blondes with blue eyes, they're gonna fail. If they only hire black dudes built like Mike Tyson, they will fail. If they only hire people with IQ's of 150 and up, they will fail. The Free Market decides and that's true beauty.

 

[CountryGent]

The Free Market decides and that's true beauty.

Indeed; it a most efficient system.

 

[gmerkt]

Agreed, but if the dollar tanks you are still better off with a couple million in your retirement account than those who don't have that much (or any). Also, in today's age of technology diversification in off shore opportunities and hard asset investing is cheaper and easier than ever.

Yes, inflationary dollars are better than no dollars. It's a shame that people put away a dollar and by the time they spend it, it's worth forty cents. This has been going on for a long time. These days, the government tells us, "inflation is low, look at the BLS figures." I don't think those numbers include real property or vehicles. And many other things.

Off shore opportunities, I don't know anything about. If it's not within my reach, I feel it's too far away. Hard assets I'm more keen on.

We then looked a a companies efficiency and time management practices and invariably were able to find the morning smoke and joke sessions at the 7 /11 before they went to the job. 3 guys times 15 minutes. 45 minutes. 2 guys dicking off smoking outside break times 40 minutes each per day, 80 minutes. 2 guys on their phones 20 minutes each per day, 40 minutes. So we had a total of 2.75 hours minimum lost time on that crew alone conservatively estimated per day.

I imagine we would have to completely rework that whole matrix with how people are so addicted to their gdamn phones, those losses would have to be double the smoking loss.

They leave the barn at 0800 to take a 30 minute drive to the site, arrive at 0930. For example. I get that. I had some construction people working here a coujple of years ago, that was their pattern. The company owner couldn't figure out why tasks were taking so long. This was a serial subject of conversation between him and his employees. I didn't get involved; I figured he should've been out here more often himself to see what was going on. A combined failure of management and labor.

One of my sons-in-law works in building maintenance. For quite a few years, he worked for a firm that contracted to do maintenance for bank branches. You know, part of cost cutting is to eliminate in-house custodial and maintenance. Anyway, this SIL typically spent about six hours a day driving around and two hours maintaining. There was a lot of dick-off time built into his schedule and I'm pretty sure his case isn't unusual. He's back at a fixed site job mostly now so his opportunities of stealing company time are more limited.

7 people have been fired after several warnings.
I expect that number to grow, as there are no more warnings.

It will as many children are becoming addicted to their devices at fairly early ages.

If you want to talk about wasting the company's time, think about all of the Starbucks crowd that stand in line to get their coffee and can't possibly be working to their best while drinking it.

Yes, I agree that there is likely some of this. "Making a coffee run." One employee does it, that wastes time, then several waste time fooling around with it after he gets back with the coffee. Some companies have "no eating" at work station rules. Actually, that's what breaks and lunch are for. Water bottles. Not to get ridiculous about it, but every time an employee stops work, reaches down to get their bottle, takes a swig, then replaces it and gets back on concentration, that's wasted time. Yes, people need to stay hydrated but this is another thing that's gone way beyond all reason for some people. A walk to the water cooler and back a couple of times has been replaced by carrying a water bottle every where. Hey, you're not gonna dry up and blow away if you don't take a sip of water every ten minutes.

I'm not a Nazi about work rules, but there is such a thing as a day's work for a day's pay.

 

[Ops]

good for them, more need to do this

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Disclaimer :
I am a non smoker.

A company should be able to have a policy or a set of rules that governs the workplace / workday.
However....

What I do in my off hours is my business....and I should not have to answer to my boss.
What if this was a policy of :
We will not hire gun owners....

I understand :
The health risks of smoking...
Loss of productivity during a smoke break or the sneaking of the same...
The potential "PR" loss when a non smoker customer has to interact with a smoker...
Insurance coverage...
That some things that I do in my after work hours will affect my workplace performance or even the safety of others...

But with all that said...
Its my life after I clock out...and as much as I like my job....stay out of my home life.
Andy

 

[revjen45]

1) Considerate smokers: Most smokers are not as aware and considerate as Pete F. Most of them are f-bombing pigs, and those who do practice courtesy are the exception. They don't seem to regard butts as real litter, or smoke as air pollution. I once was smoking a cigar in the designated smoking area at a local community college, and a cigarette smoker had the chutzpah to scream "What stinks!" A cigar or a pipe smells like tobacco. A cigarette smells like smoldering greasy shop rag. "What stinks?!?" indeed.
2) I really do think that young people entering real life now have a more difficult time than my generation, and less reason for optimism about the future.
3) I felt like I should have a 4-year degree for a long time. Then I realized it wasn't necessary for me to be a worthwhile human being. The whole idea that a 4-year degree is a necessity is a fraud perpetrated by Academia. People who get education/training in something useful with an Associate degree end up with marketable skills that pay well. Our son went to school for Welding. Now he has a good job that he likes, $ in the bank, and no debt. If you really can't live without a 4-year degree most employers will help with expenses. (The Big B is most magnanimous with educational benefits.) I still recall the gentleman @ the Boeing Cafeteria who had a Masters Degree in Fine Arts - totally unnecessary to put food on my plate and hand it to me.
4) Back in the Dream Time I knew a man who said that tobacco is as addictive as heroin. Since he was a long time junkie who smoked I assumed that he knew whereof he spoke.

 

[MannyGlocks]

In regard to the idea employers can dictate what you as their employee can legally do or not on your off hours like shoot guns is within their purview.

It isn't.

No one cares to challenge their boss if they depend on their paycheck, but if they have other means, they could fight this over bearing nonsense. If on off hours 3 (or more) employees automatically constitutes a company event is utter nonsense and is edging into Orwellian-think.

Presumably, if 3 or more get together for a bar-b-que say or went bowling the boss thinks they're creating a company event? Thus, the group is constrained to his whim when they're not on the clock or company premises?

Balderdash! (love that word)

No, but if you are willing to let him unreasonably dictate the warp and weft of your lives, ok, it's your paycheck.

Or consider a discreet phone call to the National Labor Relations Board alerting them to his practices. It might then bring it to a screeching halt.

This authoritarian bs wouldn't hold up in court.

I recall my former company, now many moons ago, who insisted the hourly people come in early and stay late by as much as 2 hours per day. This practice went on for over 2 years.

Somebody made a call to the NLRB about it and all the accumulated overtime had to be paid to the employees and the practice of not paying for it...ceased abruptly.

 

[bbbass]

2) I really do think that young people entering real life now have a more difficult time than my generation, and less reason for optimism about the future.

Disagree.... This is a wonderful time to be young. The opportunities are more diverse and the economy is booming. We older people need to shut up and stop ruining it for them. Their world is complex enough w/o all the screaming about Climate Change, looming war, disaster this or that, coming economic collapse, divorce rate, murder rate, etc etc etc. In the 60s and 70s, kids wanted to drop out, now we are engendering the same in today's kids. Just stop it!

 

[Mikej]

As a smoker who has quit several times, I have a different view. I have been using nicotine since I was in the womb. Smoking during breaks and lunch hurts no one but me. I would have no problem paying a higher insurance premium if required and it was fairly distributed to all high risk behaviors.

Second hand smoke is complete BS. I am a considerate smoker.. I am careful not to smell like smoke when I returned to work - yes there are ways including simple things like washing your hands. I move to a place that my smoke will not waft over to someone else. I don't smoke in my car or house and don't like the smell of cigarette smoke while I am eating or in an enclosed space.

So what did the company do? They crammed all of the smokers into a small mostly enclosed/covered space making all of us smell like an ashtray on inclimate weather days. I would find another spot offsite to avoid it.

If you want to talk about wasting the company's time, think about all of the Starbucks crowd that stand in line to get their coffee and can't possibly be working to their best while drinking it.

I will try to quit again soon, but my opinion will remain the same even when i do quit. I am tired of all of the laws and requirements. I pay taxes like most everyone else and if I want to light up in a city park it should be my right. Try walking around Portland without stepping on "No Smoking Ground."

I'm right there with you. I quit in 2007 and never had a smoke for nine years. I started again *dumbass, I know* but only with the evening cocktail or coupla beers. Maybe four smokes, +/- one. Somebody needs to slap the crap out of the pigs that throw their butts on the ground!

I'm extremely conscientious of where my smoke goes. And if I'm not having my smoke/drink combo cig smoke is repulsive to me, like in the car when Wifey is smoking, even with windows open. Out in the open? When you get a whiff of someone elses cig? Bah, it's no better or worse than a perfume you don't care for, or chimney smoke in winter, or, God forbid, something like patchouli oil perfume . Stuff like that leaves a taste in your mouth. Then there's some of these oxymorons that are so health conscious, riding in the "Spandex Mafia", jogging/walking miles a day, all over the city. You know the type? They hold their noses and wave their hand as though they can't breath because they caught a whiff of ciggy smoke. Then they'll go back to riding/jogging/walking down the road with all the cars spewing exhaust. Gimme a break.

 

[bbbass]

I'm right there with you. I quit in 2007 and never had a smoke for nine years. I started again *dumbass, I know* but only with the evening cocktail or coupla beers. Maybe four smokes, +/- one. Somebody needs to slap the crap out of the pigs that throw their butts on the ground!

I'm extremely conscientious of where my smoke goes. And if I'm not having my smoke/drink combo cig smoke is repulsive to me, like in the car when Wifey is smoking, even with windows open. Out in the open? When you get a whiff of someone elses cig? Bah, it's no better or worse than a perfume you don't care for, or chimney smoke in winter, or, God forbid, something like patchouli oil perfume . Stuff like that leaves a taste in your mouth. Then there's some of these oxymorons that are so health conscious, riding in the "Spandex Mafia", jogging/walking miles a day, all over the city. You know the type? They hold their noses and wave their hand as though they can't breath because they caught a whiff of ciggy smoke. Then they'll go back to riding/jogging/walking down the road with all the cars spewing exhaust. Gimme a break.

I like chimney smoke, and the smell of covfefe... but the older I get, the more stinky smells bother me, and noises seem louder. The senses get overwhelmed. Me too I guess... Get Off My Lawn!!!