Messages
16,973
Reactions
40,468
I think it has a lot on where you live on what's in stock. I was in boise last weekend and I almost got divorced. I left the gun stores drooling on all the stuff they had in stock lol. Guns that are hard to find here were all over the place.....

View attachment 1273800
Sure "sounds like" what the shop is full of then is stuff no one wants. Again if the people making guns cranked out stuff no one wants blaming it on consumers, who are clambering for guns just shows real incompetence. The people in charge of these places that make stuff are paid BIG money to make sure this does not happen. Sounds like at least one of them (S&W ) is now trying to tell fairy tales to cover up their own lack. :s0092: Don't make what people want to buy, make a LOT of stuff no one wants to buy, then blame the customers. Sounds like a great business plan to me. :confused:
 
Messages
699
Reactions
987
Some S&W are priced as what you would pay for some HK’s. Their quality is entry level I’m not an M&P fan but I would certainly take an M&P or say a Springfield Croatian designed XD. Give me Palmetto State Prices because that M&P sport really ain’t worth more than 500-550 max. Drop the m&P to like $350-400 and they will succeed in that market just a thought..
 
Messages
16,973
Reactions
40,468
that horrible shotgun they just released, the VHS renamed Hellion bullpup for almost $2k, S&W should stick to quality revolvers people actually want and bring back the 59 series 9mms everybodies owned one and loved.

my two cents
That is a prime example of what I have been talking about. The 59 series was one hell of a winner for them. Look how well they still sell used. Look what happened when the High Power was brought back? How long have they been back and look at the line waiting to buy them. People in charge of these Companies get paid VERY well to be better than this. Looks like some of them are VERY far left. The idea of if they just keep failing they will get promoted works for a while, until they run the place into the dirt.
 
Messages
1,324
Reactions
2,273
ScArY HeAdLiNe
This dramatic drop was due to the Covid Scare and our current POS.
Just my opinion, however.

sales of $84.4 million, down 69.3% from $274.6 million a year ago
 
Messages
3,600
Reactions
5,288
I was under the impression that they were selling M&P 2's at rock bottom prices to make way for their line of optics ready handguns. I suspect that more buyers want optics ready guns than not. It's expensive to have slides milled and some S&W's can't be cut.
 
Messages
2,096
Reactions
2,247
They pumped out plastic guns because that is what gun shops ordered and what the gun shops where told by the people they wanted.

The shop I work at, it was almost a 75 to 1 ratio of folks looking for a hi cap 9mm plastic fantastic over a revolver for the end of the world Zombie Apocalypse, defund the police and the riots.

We have more revolvers now then we have had in over 2 years and they hardly get looked at as folks are still buying 9s, its only a hand full of collectors or die hard revolver folks that are buying them.

It is getting better as folks are not in panic mode as much as they were but we are still selling more than average of what we did before the panic/pandemic.

Just my 2 cents

Edit spelling
I’m (probably) never buying any S&W with a Hillary hole; or an oddly-shaped cylinder release.
 
Messages
2,096
Reactions
2,247
that horrible shotgun they just released, the VHS renamed Hellion bullpup for almost $2k, S&W should stick to quality revolvers people actually want and bring back the 59 series 9mms everybodies owned one and loved.

my two cents
My 4006 Tactical is a tank and one of my favorite autos. I’d buy a new 6906 or 5906 right now if they were available.
 
Messages
3,640
Reactions
3,798
My 4006 Tactical is a tank and one of my favorite autos. I’d buy a new 6906 or 5906 right now if they were available.
they could do something new and make a long slide 59 series (optics cut or not) id take one in stainless, same with a Chef Special 9mm, Model 36 in stainless nice little snub, bring back the classics in classic form. but they instead make S&W brand glocks...
its a born to fail business model.
 
Messages
4,687
Reactions
10,680
Don't own many Smiths, myself. I like the ones I do own, though in general they just don't appeal to me as a brand. The shield and all it's flavors are just sized badly for me, the revolvers have that weird lawyer lock and ARs are... ARs. I'm not even sure what they could produce to make me interested. Be like Ruger, maybe? But in blue.
 
Messages
3,387
Reactions
9,698
Haven't we seen unprecedented sales across the board over the last two years due to the 2020 Summer of Pillaging and the pandemic? So obviously those high sales can't sustain.

But Smith & Wesson has made some interesting choices. For example they were the first to market initially with their optic ready M&P Core. They dominated the optic ready category. But then they stalled. They allowed everyone and their brother to not only release an optic ready gun...which they obviously can't control...but they let most other makers release rev 2's and additional optic ready versions, without a peep coming from S&W. People were screaming for more optic ready guns, asking when S&W was planning on at least releasing an M&P 2.0 Core, and the company had NO ANSWERS. This caused plenty of their customers to look to other makers. And now, of course, S&W has released a bunch of optic ready options...now...which is great...but they definitely lost market share and allowed their competition to more than catch up while they were dragging their feet.

Then there is that new Shotgun. Strange choice.

And they release a brand new caliber...30 Super...when the ammo makers can't even keep 9mm on the shelf? 30 Super seems like a solution looking for a problem. I can't believe their selling a ton of those things but what do I know.
 
Messages
3,638
Reactions
7,273
Smith & Wesson (and any other company that wants to stay in business) makes what sells most. In this case, plastic pistols. Which, I suspect but do not know for certain, probably cost less to manufacture than a good revolver. The drop in sales - and stock price - is all about the drop-off of panic buying. Between wars and riots, the firearms business historically has seen many cyclical highs and lows. Business for fireworks factories falls off severely following the Fourth of July.

.but they let most other makers release rev 2's and additional optic ready versions, without a peep coming from S&W. People were screaming for more optic ready guns, asking when S&W was planning on at least releasing an M&P 2.0 Core, and the company had NO ANSWERS. This caused plenty of their customers to look to other makers.
And there is always this kind of thing. Management makes decisions, we can't always know why. Some are better than others.
 
Messages
770
Reactions
1,278
I think they tried too hard to get into the exotics market (the Hellion and M&P12 for example) without really understanding the customer base for that market. To pay top dollar for an oddity requires true innovation and novelty. Their offerings provided neither. The Hellion is cool, but not AUG/Tavor cool, and it's as/more expensive than the more well-known options. And the M&P12 seems a lot like a KSG knockoff with a higher MSRP.
 
I'm a S&W guy, but their variety of guns reads like a Cheesecake Factory menu...too many options. This is a problem for stocking and production and they continue down this road. Then they make a metal (aluminum) frame M&P, which I am all over upon release, but don't provide a model with a manual safety which I prefer. Your other 500 striker fired models have this option, why not this one???

I enjoy my 3rd gen Smiths but there is only a tiny market share for DA/SA guns and revolvers for that matter. I'm glad they have stayed in the revolver game but it has to be tough. Agree also with prior posts on costs for their OR models. An M&P 2.0 C OR with a slide cut and tall sights is $150 more than the regular version. Sigh.
 
Messages
3,166
Reactions
6,218
Despite what Brandon would have us believe, there really is a recession going on. It's normal that non necessity item sales are going to drop. There is also a thing called market saturation. Rushes of new gun owners is one thing, but that's bound to taper off to more "normalized" levels. We also saw massive price hikes the past couple of years and mfg's taking advantage of the higher than usual demand. That's also not sustainable long term.

The political climate, I think, drives sales more than they hamper them, but all things considred it really seems to be a combination of factors that might be now showing on their diminished sales.

What I don't get is why it seems to be coming as such a shock. It seems completely predicatable.

I think repeat business certainly is critical for them, but let's face it... if firearm prices remain at "pandemic level" price points, that's not going to encourage "I want another just because I want one" sales. If you already own one, you don't particularly "need" another.

I could be wrong, but even before the recession there where firearms I was tempted to buy, but not at THOSE/THESE prices! ;)
 
Messages
770
Reactions
1,278
Have you SIG's options? There's your menu

Disclaimer: I haven't looked at S&W's semis
The main difference is SIG was smart enough to invest in developing their own lines of accessories and optics - two things that have high profit margins and are generally less susceptible to changes in government regulations or market downturns. People might not be willing to drop $2,000 on a new rifle or $500 on a new pistol, but will still spend $200 on an optic. And that optic probably cost them $40 to produce, whereas the pistol is probably $300+ per unit to manufacture. Same concept as the gun range being a separate business entity than the retail shop in the same building - if anything happens to one, there's still an income stream from the other.
 
Messages
33,501
Reactions
85,071
The main difference is SIG was smart enough to invest in developing their own lines of accessories and optics - two things that have high profit margins and are generally less susceptible to changes in government regulations or market downturns. People might not be willing to drop $2,000 on a new rifle or $500 on a new pistol, but will still spend $200 on an optic. And that optic probably cost them $40 to produce, whereas the pistol is probably $300+ per unit to manufacture. Same concept as the gun range being a separate business entity than the retail shop in the same building - if anything happens to one, there's still an income stream from the other.
What I notice is that SIG has a lot of bling variations - the Legion, Elite, etc. - they have their Legion owners club with bling/etc.

I like some of what they have in that respect for the variations - the beavertail, etc. - but I am not going to pay $500 more for a pistol with a more pronounced beavertail, and certainly not for something with "V" on the grips.
 
Messages
770
Reactions
1,278
What I notice is that SIG has a lot of bling variations - the Legion, Elite, etc. - they have their Legion owners club with bling/etc.

I like some of what they have in that respect for the variations - the beavertail, etc. - but I am not going to pay $500 more for a pistol with a more pronounced beavertail, and certainly not for something with "V" on the grips.
True, but I'll take the "V" over the "GRIP ZONE" any day! :s0112: Springfield's marketing department must have been high to let that happen.

I will say the Legion model feels significantly better to shoot than the stock pistol - the trigger is excellent IMO. If I had a bunch of spare cash lying around I'd probably pick one up.

As for S&W, I think they rely too much on their name recognition. Their website is basic, not optimized for mobile, and lacking in aesthetics, media, and other features. I could build a better website in an afternoon using a basic squarespace or godaddy account. People do most of their product research online before ever setting foot in a gun shop, so that's probably costing them quite a bit in terms of new and returning customers.

I think they'd be better off simplifying their gun offerings, investing time and resources into developing a really good line of accessories, hiring some outside talent to push innovation in their R&D, and bolstering their marketing & tech departments.
 
Messages
33,501
Reactions
85,071
I will say the Legion model feels significantly better to shoot than the stock pistol - the trigger is excellent IMO. If I had a bunch of spare cash lying around I'd probably pick one up.
I will eventually send some of my SIGs to the SIG armorer to get the best trigger available - probably money better spent than having SIG do it.
 

Upcoming Events

Rickreall Winter Gun Show December 10th & 11th
Rickreall, OR
Wes Knodel Gun Shows
Chehalis, WA

Latest Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top