Should Doctors teach gun safety?

[Steve06]

Nothing the matter with anyone teaching Firearms Safety if they have the credentials to do so. A minimum for credentials should be NRA Firearms Instructor Certification.

 

[Kevatc]

Well you might be right, the stretch to include abortion might be irrelevant, but his overall end assessment that "doctors are much more dangerous than guns" is still correct if you figure the estimates are anywhere from 98k to 120k people die each year from preventable malpractice. that is 3 to 4 times the amount that die in all gun related deaths(in the USA).... if you include suicides.... 10 times as many deaths if you just look at homicides.

I'm not saying doc's don't make mistakes. They do. No argument here about that. But the complexity of medicine and all the variables that individual people bring to the exam room is not even comparable to being a firearms/safety instructor. There is absolutely no logical basis for comparison. The false equivalency that fuhr52 presented was mind bogglingly ..... something .... stupid, amazing, unbelievable ....???

 

[1stklass]

I think we have gotten off topic.

The problem i have is some doctor putting in a "confidential file" that the government has access to, that i OWN a gun. It has nothing to do with whether a doctor is going to teach you something you dont already know... And although each primary doctor and one surgeon i have had has been very very gifted.... When it came to mechanical things they were lost. I dont think i would trust any one of them to train me in gun handling, or mechanics, or simple home repairs.... But still not the point... Its all about getting information about you in a file.

 

[chariot13]

I'm not saying doc's don't make mistakes. They do. No argument here about that. But the complexity of medicine and all the variables that individual people bring to the exam room is not even comparable to being a firearms/safety instructor. There is absolutely no logical basis for comparison. The false equivalency that fuhr52 presented was mind bogglingly ..... something .... stupid, amazing, unbelievable ....???

You're right. His comparison of doctors forcefully ripping babies apart while in their mothers womb was not equal to the other poster, who referred to something along the lines of people leaving firearms out when children are around. It would only be equal in comparison if he said the people leaving firearms out were also pulling the trigger against those kids & not the kids themselves. I don't know to many babies reaching out from their moms womb to grab the forceps on the docs table so they can tear their own heads off. Btw I personally am not against people doing whatever they want, I am not for or against abortion. I couldn't care any less about any politics. His comparison was fair. What doctors can do legally (killing unborn babies) is certainly no better than what gun owners can do legally (having firearms in a home where a child is present, in a safe or not). You can teach your kid how to handle firearms in the house & what you think is proper, Just as you can teach a doctor how to handle the baby in your body & what you think is proper. What is proper is not up to society. It's up to the individual.

 

[oknow]

one question for you then isn't that a boundary violation make sure of your answer

Dont know what you're talking about... But sounds like you're threatening me?

you didn't answer the question! and if you don't know what I'm talking about why does it seam like I'm threatening you??

You haven't answered the question, so either (I will give you the benefit of thinking you are looking up the answer) or you know what I am saying is true. have a good day

 

[bolus]

Got to love the doctor hate on this forum. I like how we are all baby murderers now. Make sure you got the facts right when discussing firearm issues but when discussing doctors throw out a bunch of garbage like we all kill babies.

How's this, I wont advise people to secure their guns when kids are around (I dont do that anyway) if you guys dont come see me after your heart attack from carrying your "bug out bag" filled with cigarette cartons and freeze dried deserts up the stairs. And feel free to perform your own 100% complication free surgeries when you need them.

Because last I looked, none of you guys are required in any legal way to see a doctor to discuss preventive health. Nor take the advice, nor answer the questions.

Im kind of wondering why I've been spending a ton of time talking and writing with politicians to support gun rights for this community.

Now back to my fetus omelette, sooo tasty....

 

[Dave Workman]

Should firearms instructors diagnose illnesses and ailments?

Should gunsmiths do brain surgery?

 

[Blue Devil PA]

Some facts about medical deaths:

When I read about how the medical system "kills" all these people every year, I think about my day in the local emergency room: Patient's lies, refusal to stop harmful activities, unwillingness to even learn the names of their own medications ("I don't know, don't you have it in my record?"), refusal to purchase medications because they are too expensive ($4 list at Walmart) and a dozen other barriers.
We, as healthcare providers, have allowed a culture of co-dependency to flourish. On one hand we need the patient to listen to what we have to say and do it to the very best of their abilities; on the other the patient needs to understand the "whys, hows and ifs" of their care.

So many barriers to this ideal relationship: Face time for patient education, lack of accountability on the part of the patients, legal system that allows for a "Vegas" attitude and resulting defensive posture from the care givers and many, many others.

No one gets into medicine anymore for the money, at least any that I have come across in my experience. What medicine is now: Pretty good job security, decent pay check, long hours, stressful work conditions, high cost of education and as many caregivers will relate if they are being honest a patient population that has unrealistic expectations and sense of entitlement.

On the other hand, we spend more in the US on healthcare than any other industrialized nation and have worse outcomes than any other. As the speaker at my medical school commencement stated: "The medical system in the the US is broken and will not survive to the end of your careers in it's current form, it will have to change dramatically in the next 20 years in order to meet the challenges."

 

[fuhr52]

My comparison with abortion is relevant. It relates to the hypocrisy of caring so much for the children and gun violence. The president surrounds himself with children and we are suppose to cry our eyes out demanding gun control. All the while children are being ripped from their mothers womb and thrown in the trash. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand. Murder is murder. One is acceptable and apparently the other isn't. IMHO.

 

[civilian75]

IMO, it is a boundary violation to discuss gun safety during a regular check up. Doctors should stick to health related issues, not safety, which is only relevant within the context of a patient's mental health. Blue Devil PA's first post goes along this line of thinking.

 

[chariot13]

Got to love the doctor hate on this forum. I like how we are all baby murderers now. Make sure you got the facts right when discussing firearm issues but when discussing doctors throw out a bunch of garbage like we all kill babies.

How's this, I wont advise people to secure their guns when kids are around (I dont do that anyway) if you guys dont come see me after your heart attack from carrying your "bug out bag" filled with cigarette cartons and freeze dried deserts up the stairs. And feel free to perform your own 100% complication free surgeries when you need them.

Because last I looked, none of you guys are required in any legal way to see a doctor to discuss preventive health. Nor take the advice, nor answer the questions.

Im kind of wondering why I've been spending a ton of time talking and writing with politicians to support gun rights for this community.

Now back to my fetus omelette, sooo tasty....

If you only eat eggs that are a little bloody, nyom nyom can imagine how yummy that must be . The eggs we usually eat in our omelette's are still just a bundle of mess, there is no formation. It doesn't have it's own blood supply, heart, brain, nervous system with working neurotransmitters that send pain signals through out it's own body. With that aside, I do eat me some chicken every now n then. I think the issue some people have with doctors is them telling other people what's right or wrong in regard to guns, & no im not talking about the doctors children but other peoples children, gun owner or not. They don't want a busy body doctor that lets their cultural or societal upbringing interfere with what actually pertains to that doctors decisions. Guns in any home is none of their business especially since they like to report things to the government. Just as the confidentiality between a doctor & a potential mother & services rendered are none of the business to any gun or non gun owner out there nor is it the business of any government.

The push for doctors to find out about guns in homes is akin to the push to have teachers find out about guns in homes. They both try to use this lame excuse that it's in the name of safety, but it's quasi registration.

 

[salmonriverjohn]

Listen up all you doctors, and wannbe doctors, while I appreciate your ability to heal don't confuse the issue here. You have the right to ask, I have the right to tell you it's none of your damned business, get used to it. I feel strongly about my 2ND amendment right, and you feel strongly about your 1st amendment right to express your opinions here, and obviously you feel your 2nd is important also or you wouldn't be here discussing it.

Lets not get mired in the weeds, your either for it or against it. I'll go on record as stating that I feel abortion is murder, as surely as pulling a trigger on a 5 year old such as that mad man did, its just happens to be that ones legal and the other ones not. I'm not saying that any of those of you who've stepped up and said your in the medical field are for or against it, but the fact remains the same, a murder is a murder and a death is a death. Justify your own reasons and convictions, I have.

Your not required to ask, just as your not required to perform an abortion. It's definitely a hot button topic in both regards and is the subject of much debate. There are those here in this discussion that feel as strongly that its a ridiculous comparison and many others that feel its a relevant topic, perhaps its one who's time has come, on both issues.

 

[Father of four]

Darn fine post salmonriverjohn!!!!!

 

[MrNiceGuy]

According to the Home Safety Council, the top 5 causes of accidental home injury deaths are (in order): Poisoning, Falls, Fire and burns, Airway obstruction, Water drowning and submersions.

Until a doctor adresses each of those, any talk of guns in my house is NOT a "legitimate preventive safety issue". Any doctor who believes otherwise either has another agenda or has been fooled themselves.

To be clear, i've been asked about guns by a doctor twice, both times in passing as if it were just another box on their questionnaire. Both times i've answered in the negative. But, i've never been asked about wobbly step stools or precarious chairs, both of which are statistically more likely to injure and kill me.

 

[PX4WA]

You haven't answered the question, so either (I will give you the benefit of thinking you are looking up the answer) or you know what I am saying is true. have a good day

Wow... you really feel really smart about yourself don't you... I'm sorry but I know a bully when I see one.. and your antics are childish bully tactics it is sad... I'm sorry you didn't get to grow up in a good environment/school... hopefully you learn to live peacefully with others without feeling the need to be superior...

I actually have a job... and I have more to do than argue with close minded people... and in case you think I get a kick feeling I need to win an internet argument, I don't... I get enough respect from my patients that I don't need to feed my ego... I actually posted because I was hoping to add some points to the debate... but it went downhill fast and resorted to name calling it just wasn't worth it...

to answer your question.. NO it is not boundary violation... and I am sure of my answer (asking somebody to make sure of his answer -- OR ELSE? is a threat... veiled but definitely a threat that I'm supposed to be scared if my answer is not what you want to hear -- sorry bully I don't fear you)

you and I have a different view of boundary violation.. how somebody equates molesting a patient with talking about firearms as a preventive safety issue is beyond me... that alone tells me I cannot have a meaningful debate...

so I'll make one shot at this and I'm bowing out.. no point in getting all bent up about other's people's point of views... free country.. think however you want... I am not subscribed to the thread and don't care what gets said afterwards... call me whatever name you want if it makes you feel more of a man, please do so..

my panties are not in a bunch...(I don't think I borrowed yours) I just have other things to do than try to win an internet argument to make me feel better... but I recognize, some with low self esteem need to feel they won and argument.. so ahead of time I concede.. you win.. feel free to post whatever you want about me (call me names and such), just shows who the dumb and uneducated are and who are not...

if you have to stoop to insults to win or feel better... well that's just sad..

and if you still don't get it, I'm good at veiled insults too...


here is my summary...

1. it is sad when we feel nobody has the right to ask us about things but we feel every right to tell others HOW to do things... or what to do... hypocrisy is great isn't it? this is really about people who think they know better, telling doctors what we can and cannot ask... on the other hand, we doctors never force people do things... we recommend a plan of treatment, we tell them the consequences of not doing something ... but we don't go into your homes and make you take drugs you don't want... and we don't force you to answer any questions... or even to see us... it's a free country... don't like us? stay away... let's see who wins in the end... when you have a heart attack or your nephew drowns in the pool or gets shot but a gun left in the closet when they visit, we don't really care about it... we actually do things to hopefully prevent things from happening... and if we never hear about it... that's fine for us...

we don't wait for people to have a heart attack to tell them I told you so.... but if they do, we're still there to help them prevent the next one...

a lot of people just don't seem to understand what we do... but feel they need to tell us how to do things....

not that different from politicians who tell you you can't have something but don't know what that something is...

bottom line is if you don't like to answer, skip it... and a lot do...

so this isn't really about 2nd amendment more than suppressing the 1st... and feeling smart about it...

so my right to work however I want is to be questioned, but I cannot question you? terrific... === see why this debate is pointless?


2. the sad thing with america is the public education system produces folks with the lack of ability for critical thinking... almost every reply so far repeats canned rhetoric..

gone are the days when debate was about real facts and data... now it is just about sentiment... or internet rehash... we can all find statistics to support our views...

I'm not here with an agenda.. I posted to try to provide a view from the other side to help the group know how we think and why we do...


3. I don't get why doctors are supposed to be anti-gun, just because a national doctor group is.. so if you live in a district that's anti-gun (has an anti-gun congressman) then you are supposed to be anti-gun?

to be clear, I am not anti-gun.. but so far people are making me out to be, because I don't share their view... (reminds me of liberals who don't want us to have guns because they dont' want to)


4. it is undeniable that kids die from firearms... I asked you to google them because there are too many to list... if you deny this, then what else can I say? in WA state last year at least 2 kids died from firearms that were left alone... one was a police officer's kid... so it doesn't matter who you are, common sense firearm safety makes sense...

arguing that we are over stepping our bounds is true if I offered a firearms safety course without certification... but I'm not... all we talk about is please lock up your guns... 30 second conversation at most... we have a multitude of things to talk about... that is not the focus of the visit... most of you make it seem like that's all we do... I figure you probably haven't been to a doctor lately...

and we ask about seatbelts, hot water, swimming pools, helmets, smoking, etc...

and it is something that has been asked for over a decade, back when bush was president... obama didn't start this.. so bush is also anti-gun? (I guess that can be argued)


5. the sad thing is 90% of the people who posted here didn't bother watching the video... and those that did, including the OP, skew what is said to fit an agenda.. right or left, we all do it...

the video talks about talking about gun safety... not being a safety instructor... huge difference..

also it clearly indicates we don't document ownership, there is no place for that in the EMR.. and obamacare, prohibits it and we do follow the laws... there is no database as that is illegal too, there is no secret government plot... most docs who ask probably just put a one liner or check box that firearms safety was discussed... and that doesnt mean you have a gun... it just means you may come into contact with one...

where I practice, over 50% of households have guns.. we are near a military base...firearms ownership is common... even if you don't have one in your home or own one, you may be advised to make sure to lock up guns around kids if you encounter them.

so which part of the video infringes on the 2nd amendment then? your right to refuse to answer is still preserved, so if you are afraid of your 2nd amendment being violated, then exercise your 1st?

this is really a non-issue, old event, being resurrected and made to look like an agenda...

and no, i'm not being duped by the establishment... I know better than that...

===== all the other talk about abortion and such... boy that is so out of topic, I won't even go there... and this is not about medical error rates, diverting the topic to that is not the point of the topic...====

have fun... someday when I'm bored I may search this thread to see where it goes... but knowing I never will meet most of you or encounter you is a reassuring bit for me...

 

[oknow]

so you think a boundary violation only equates to molesting a patient?

(call me names and such) you mean like (bully,shows who the dumb and uneducated are) like what you said

once again you jump to a conclusion (asking somebody to make sure of his answer)= trying to get the correct answer not a canned rhetoric.

(in WA state last year at least 2 kids died from firearms that were left alone) how many children have died because of mistakes of doctors last year? so where do we get a class on doctor safety?

(there is no place for that in the EMR.. and obamacare, prohibits it and we do follow the laws) you mean like the fed's didn't when firearms were purchased?

(back when bush was president)

that alone tells me I cannot have a meaningful debate... "my panties are not in a bunch...(I don't think I borrowed yours)" yea real meaningful

just a couple responses to your reply
Have a good day

 

[deen_ad]

A boundary violation occurs when a Dr. steps outside his specialty into areas s/he's not trained in. Very few Dr's are NRA certified trainers. Until they are trained they have no business asking about guns nor giving "advice".

How many Dr's have talked to you about pool safety?

"If you own a gun and have a swimming pool in the yard, the swimming pool is almost 100 times more likely to kill a child than the gun is."
The Chicago Sun-Times.

Deen
NRA Life Benefactor Member / Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector Member
Arms Collectors of South West Washington Member
Second Amendment Foundation Member

 

[oknow]

A boundary violation occurs when a Dr. steps outside his specialty into areas s/he's not trained in. Very few Dr's are NRA certified trainers. Until they are trained they have no business asking about guns nor giving "advice".

How many Dr's have talked to you about pool safety?





Deen
NRA Life Benefactor Member / Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector Member
Arms Collectors of South West Washington Member
Second Amendment Foundation Member

apparently px4wa feels a boundary violation is only if they
" molest a patient "

 

[1970camaroRS]

Wow... you really feel really smart about yourself don't you... I'm sorry but I know a bully when I see one.. and your antics are childish bully tactics it is sad... I'm sorry you didn't get to grow up in a good environment/school... hopefully you learn to live peacefully with others without feeling the need to be superior...

I actually have a job... and I have more to do than argue with close minded people... and in case you think I get a kick feeling I need to win an internet argument, I don't... I get enough respect from my patients that I don't need to feed my ego... I actually posted because I was hoping to add some points to the debate... but it went downhill fast and resorted to name calling it just wasn't worth it...

to answer your question.. NO it is not boundary violation... and I am sure of my answer (asking somebody to make sure of his answer -- OR ELSE? is a threat... veiled but definitely a threat that I'm supposed to be scared if my answer is not what you want to hear -- sorry bully I don't fear you)

you and I have a different view of boundary violation.. how somebody equates molesting a patient with talking about firearms as a preventive safety issue is beyond me... that alone tells me I cannot have a meaningful debate...

so I'll make one shot at this and I'm bowing out.. no point in getting all bent up about other's people's point of views... free country.. think however you want... I am not subscribed to the thread and don't care what gets said afterwards... call me whatever name you want if it makes you feel more of a man, please do so..

my panties are not in a bunch...(I don't think I borrowed yours) I just have other things to do than try to win an internet argument to make me feel better... but I recognize, some with low self esteem need to feel they won and argument.. so ahead of time I concede.. you win.. feel free to post whatever you want about me (call me names and such), just shows who the dumb and uneducated are and who are not...

if you have to stoop to insults to win or feel better... well that's just sad..

and if you still don't get it, I'm good at veiled insults too...


here is my summary...

1. it is sad when we feel nobody has the right to ask us about things but we feel every right to tell others HOW to do things... or what to do... hypocrisy is great isn't it? this is really about people who think they know better, telling doctors what we can and cannot ask... on the other hand, we doctors never force people do things... we recommend a plan of treatment, we tell them the consequences of not doing something ... but we don't go into your homes and make you take drugs you don't want... and we don't force you to answer any questions... or even to see us... it's a free country... don't like us? stay away... let's see who wins in the end... when you have a heart attack or your nephew drowns in the pool or gets shot but a gun left in the closet when they visit, we don't really care about it... we actually do things to hopefully prevent things from happening... and if we never hear about it... that's fine for us...

we don't wait for people to have a heart attack to tell them I told you so.... but if they do, we're still there to help them prevent the next one...

a lot of people just don't seem to understand what we do... but feel they need to tell us how to do things....

not that different from politicians who tell you you can't have something but don't know what that something is...

bottom line is if you don't like to answer, skip it... and a lot do...

so this isn't really about 2nd amendment more than suppressing the 1st... and feeling smart about it...

so my right to work however I want is to be questioned, but I cannot question you? terrific... === see why this debate is pointless?


2. the sad thing with america is the public education system produces folks with the lack of ability for critical thinking... almost every reply so far repeats canned rhetoric..

gone are the days when debate was about real facts and data... now it is just about sentiment... or internet rehash... we can all find statistics to support our views...

I'm not here with an agenda.. I posted to try to provide a view from the other side to help the group know how we think and why we do...


3. I don't get why doctors are supposed to be anti-gun, just because a national doctor group is.. so if you live in a district that's anti-gun (has an anti-gun congressman) then you are supposed to be anti-gun?

to be clear, I am not anti-gun.. but so far people are making me out to be, because I don't share their view... (reminds me of liberals who don't want us to have guns because they dont' want to)


4. it is undeniable that kids die from firearms... I asked you to google them because there are too many to list... if you deny this, then what else can I say? in WA state last year at least 2 kids died from firearms that were left alone... one was a police officer's kid... so it doesn't matter who you are, common sense firearm safety makes sense...

arguing that we are over stepping our bounds is true if I offered a firearms safety course without certification... but I'm not... all we talk about is please lock up your guns... 30 second conversation at most... we have a multitude of things to talk about... that is not the focus of the visit... most of you make it seem like that's all we do... I figure you probably haven't been to a doctor lately...

and we ask about seatbelts, hot water, swimming pools, helmets, smoking, etc...

and it is something that has been asked for over a decade, back when bush was president... obama didn't start this.. so bush is also anti-gun? (I guess that can be argued)


5. the sad thing is 90% of the people who posted here didn't bother watching the video... and those that did, including the OP, skew what is said to fit an agenda.. right or left, we all do it...

the video talks about talking about gun safety... not being a safety instructor... huge difference..

also it clearly indicates we don't document ownership, there is no place for that in the EMR.. and obamacare, prohibits it and we do follow the laws... there is no database as that is illegal too, there is no secret government plot... most docs who ask probably just put a one liner or check box that firearms safety was discussed... and that doesnt mean you have a gun... it just means you may come into contact with one...

where I practice, over 50% of households have guns.. we are near a military base...firearms ownership is common... even if you don't have one in your home or own one, you may be advised to make sure to lock up guns around kids if you encounter them.

so which part of the video infringes on the 2nd amendment then? your right to refuse to answer is still preserved, so if you are afraid of your 2nd amendment being violated, then exercise your 1st?

this is really a non-issue, old event, being resurrected and made to look like an agenda...

and no, i'm not being duped by the establishment... I know better than that...

===== all the other talk about abortion and such... boy that is so out of topic, I won't even go there... and this is not about medical error rates, diverting the topic to that is not the point of the topic...====

have fun... someday when I'm bored I may search this thread to see where it goes... but knowing I never will meet most of you or encounter you is a reassuring bit for me...

tl;dr