Shotgun rifled slug inside rifled sabot?

[The Heretic]

I had an idea pop into my head this morning.

What would be the result of doing this?

Take a sub caliber projectile that has external "rifling" protruding from the projectile.

Start that projectile into a sabot that has matching internal rifling, such that the projectile is at the "muzzle" end of the sabot.

Now load this sabot/projectile into a shotshell and fire it from a smooth bore shotgun.

The intention is to have the projectile twist down into the sabot upon recoil from firing, causing the combination to spin, increasing stabilization.

Clear as mud?

I was thinking the twist rate would need to be slow enough that the projectile would more likely screw down into the sabot. The momentum from the projectile twisting would cause the combination to spin?

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[arakboss]

Design it, create it and send it to TAOFLEDERMAUS. (Youtuber). He might test it for you and find out if it wotks or not.

 

[The Heretic]

Design it, create it and send it to TAOFLEDERMAUS. (Youtuber). He might test it for you and find out if it wotks or not.

Yeah, I thought about that. I was hoping someone had already tried this.

 

[TTSX]

Neat idea. I would have to wonder where one would find internally rifled sabots?

 

[The Heretic]

Neat idea. I would have to wonder where one would find internally rifled sabots?

I am sure that both sabot and projectile would have to be made by hand, with different twist rates to test the effectiveness of the twist rate. Too steep/fast and the projectile would not recede into the sabot. Some spin would be better than nothing though.

The main benefit, if it worked well enough, would be that a hunter could just switch ammo instead of barrels.

 

[Will_White]

3d printed sabot would probably work.

 

[RVTECH]

The momentum from the projectile twisting would cause the combination to spin?

I don't think the sabot/bullet combo would continue to spin after its initial 'start up' due to friction between the barrel and sabot. I suspect range and accuracy would be minimal as well

Unless I am missing something how many hunters even use shotguns, or 'switch barrels' for hunting? (in rifle hunting applications)

Most hunters (I know) have dedicated rifles for specific game/varmints etc. they hunt.

 

[gmerkt]

If I have understood the proposal in the original post. The limited movement of the projectile within the sabot carrier would likely have already been completed by the time the sabot left the barrel. Thus there would be no remaining rotational energy to impart spin to the sabot leaving the barrel or projectile after the sabot shell falls away. These things all happen rather quickly once the trigger is pulled. I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me like what happens when a rocket takes off. The astronaut is pushed back into his seat right at the moment of lift-off.

With this condition being present:

I don't think the sabot/bullet combo would continue to spin after its initial 'start up' due to friction between the barrel and sabot

 

[gmerkt]

Unless I am missing something how many hunters even use shotguns, or 'switch barrels' for hunting?

There are many states that preclude rifles from hunting larger game. Which leaves shotgun alternatives. For whatever reason, there must be a certain number of hunters who use a shotgun for such purposes when a rifle would be permitted. We've had a post here not long ago from a guy who wanted to know about hunting with .410 slugs. Maybe he simply didn't have a rifle.

As to having the use of one, single purpose shotgun barrel in the field when two might be otherwise be envisioned.

There are two basic designs of shotgun slugs, Foster type (lead "rifled" slugs) and sabot slugs. Studies show that typically sabot slugs have an accuracy advantage over Foster lead slugs. Sabot slugs often have an advantage in velocity but that's because they are usually marketed as a premium ammo and therefore are loaded to higher velocities.

Foster slugs with the "rifling," this doesn't actually impart enough spin to add to stabilization. Basically the grooved surface in a Foster slug is to make it more adaptable to being fired through various choke sizes. The grooves or flutes allow the slug to swage down enough to exit the choked shotgun barrel. Foster slugs stablize through weight distribution (nose heavy).

Sabot slugs are supposed to be fired in rifled shotgun barrels. Which imparts the spin to the sabot and enclosed projectile. They will work in a smoothbore but won't take advantage of their accuracy potential. You can fire lead shot in a rifled shotgun barrel safely and without damage to equipment but the rifling will impart spin to the shot payload and the pattern will spread more. Maybe a rifled shotgun barrel has an advantage with shot fired defensively.

At least one study that I've read showed that Foster slugs fired in a rifled shotgun barrel had increased accuracy with no detriment ("leading") to the rifling in the barrel. But that might vary from barrel to barrel. I've owned one shotgun with rifled barrel. It had very shallow rifling. Same comment to T/C Contender barrels in .45 Colt/.410.

 

[Lennie]

My Benelli with a rifled barrel would deliver 3" and under groups at 100 yards with sabot slugs, iron sights and my derelict vision.

State-Of-The-Art Sabot Slugs: Winchesters Partition is Golden - Gun Tests

Gun Tests evaluates today’s most talked about handguns, rifles, shotguns and shooting accessories with utter, ruthless impartiality.

www.gun-tests.com

 

[The Heretic]

If I have understood the proposal in the original post. The limited movement of the projectile within the sabot carrier would likely have already been completed by the time the sabot left the barrel. Thus there would be no remaining rotational energy to impart spin to the sabot leaving the barrel or projectile after the sabot shell falls away. These things all happen rather quickly once the trigger is pulled. I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me like what happens when a rocket takes off. The astronaut is pushed back into his seat right at the moment of lift-off.

With this condition being present:

The question would be how much spin of the projectile would be left if any. I think experimentation would give the answer, which is why I asked the question, wondering if this had already been done. I do think the movement of the projectile within the sabot would happen within the first few inches.

 

[Longwalkhome]

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[The Heretic]

 

[Ura-Ki]

Not sure if it would help, but this has been going on for years in the muzzle loading world, it was originally used to make little projectiles work in big bore arms, and could also be used in smooth bores with ease. A few folks played with different shaped projectiles to add or increase spin, and there were some folks that found out small brass "Fletching" at the base of the projectile and embedded in the sabot would increase accuracy and provide additional wound damage! These were all Discarding Sabots BTW, and were usually made of heavy waxed paper rolled around the small projectile, or Ground up paper machet molded around the projectile using the bigger bores mold!

 

[gmerkt]

I like the rifled choke concept. The results in the video are in line what I've read about shooting Foster slugs in rifled shotgun barrels.

That choke tube is a long one. The couple of shotguns I've owned with removable chokes, they were much shorter. This might be the answer to the guy who wants to maximize both slug and shot capabilities in one barrel.

 

[revjen45]

This is the modern iteration of the Paradox Gun.
A Paradox gun is a firearm made by Holland & Holland with the last two to three inches of the muzzle rifled and the rest smooth, intended to be used as both a rifle and shotgun. Paradox guns served the needs of hunters in India and Africa who might encounter both small and large game but needed to carry only a single gun.

 

[OrPackrat]

Perhaps I don't understand exactly what you mean but it sounded like these sabots I have.

 

[The Heretic]

Perhaps I don't understand exactly what you mean but it sounded like these sabots I have.

View attachment 855229

View attachment 855238

Those are just a high quality Foster type slug.

They do not typically spin - much, if at all. The "rifling" on them is intended. to work with chokes.

My idea was to have "rifling" somewhat like that which engaged rifling in the sabot, such that forward motion would cause the slug to spin along with the sabot. But as others pointed out, the spin might not be enough to overcome friction in the barrel.

I think having a rifled choke would probably be the best option that allowed a person to shoot slugs in a smoothbore barrel. But that would require removing any existing choke and inserting the rifled choke - something that could not be done as fast as swapping out ammo. If a hunter had a SXS or over-under, then they could have the rifled choke with slug in one barrel and a shotshell and shot choke in the other - but then you lose a follow up shot on birds. I was thinking more along the lines of a pump or semi-auto shotgun - I only have pumps shotguns (I do have a shotgun/rifle combo though).