Selling without a FFL transfer

[Mike VH]

Thanks Etrian! That sounds like it would be worth the short drive over there.

 

[etrain16]

Thanks Etrian! That sounds like it would be worth the short drive over there.

They are good folks there. While it burns me to do a private sale through an FFL, they are good to work with. I use them for my incoming transfers and have done 2 private sales through them - one required them to ship it out of state to my buyer (was some extra cost for the shipping).

 

[Goosebrown]

(I would have to scratch my head for a minute but including NFA stuff I would say I bought close to 20 "firearms" in 2015 although many where suppressors and one a SBR)

I am a well educated youth of about 50 with a family here in Oregon. I would like to propose that you adopt me and then we can go out on father son shooting trips. I know I would be able to entertain you and am a good shooting companion. I can cook as well.

 

[Koda]

Isnt keeping the FFL transfer a form of registration? How long are FFL required to keep these records.

The OSP has been very tight lipped on confirming how long they keep information and policy is up to them not any law. So if they decide tomorrow to keep them 100 years they could as no law prevents it.

to clarify this ORS 166.412(7)(a), Oregon's Firearm Instant Criminal check System (FICS) law, requires Oregon to destroy the 4473 form after 5 years. The federal National Instant Criminal Check System (NICS) law requires the government to destroy the 4473 form by the next business day. FFL dealers are required to keep a record for 20 years for each sale. If during that time the FFL closes or otherwise goes out of business he is required to turn over all records to the federal government.

Sorry, I dont have any links/sources on the NICS or FFL side but there is an interesting article about it in detail here.

Anyways, now how all that correlates to a registration scheme is up to you and how much you trust the govt is abiding by the laws. Keep in mind there is no accountability and no law preventing backups from being kept but "technically" speaking none of the guns sold in America are registered but there is a paper trail for up to 20 years... indefinitely if the FFL closed shop.

 

[Jabba]

Remember guys, you can still transfer guns into a trust without a background check. Just some words on a piece of paper.

 

[BoonDocks36]

Just an FYI, Gun Runner Arms of Junction City provides Free BGC to Veterans, when your buying from them, I do not KNOW their policy for 3rd party sales ie the Dumbest OREGON law of 2015.....

They also were major backers in the Recall stuff, seeing how they are in Val Hoyle's prison, Err Precinct ! ! !

philip

 

[DuneHopper]

to clarify this ORS 166.412(7)(a), Oregon's Firearm Instant Criminal check System (FICS) law, requires Oregon to destroy the 4473 form after 5 years. The federal National Instant Criminal Check System (NICS) law requires the government to destroy the 4473 form by the next business day. FFL dealers are required to keep a record for 20 years for each sale. If during that time the FFL closes or otherwise goes out of business he is required to turn over all records to the federal government.

Sorry, I dont have any links/sources on the NICS or FFL side but there is an interesting article about it in detail here.

Anyways, now how all that correlates to a registration scheme is up to you and how much you trust the govt is abiding by the laws. Keep in mind there is no accountability and no law preventing backups from being kept but "technically" speaking none of the guns sold in America are registered but there is a paper trail for up to 20 years... indefinitely if the FFL closed shop.

I agree thats what it says, however OSP doesn't confirm that they do that. There is obviously no penalty to the OSP if they do just like Prozanski did abusing emergency safety passing of SB941 nothing came out of this and was abuse and misuse of the system. There have been cases that did come up showing that indeed records still existed after they were or should have been destroyed.

 

[cascadianliberty2012]

"But... but... background checks aren't registration!"

Good thing I'm good with a polymer 80% and a Dremel

Anyways, I used to own some guns, but they were lost in a canoe crossing of the Columbia river.

What ever happened to "I will not comply?" Just curious, seems like so much talk...

 

[Joe13]

What ever happened to "I will not comply?" Just curious, seems like so much talk...

First rule of fight club....

 

[etrain16]

"But... but... background checks aren't registration!"

Good thing I'm good with a polymer 80% and a Dremel

Anyways, I used to own some guns, but they were lost in a canoe crossing of the Columbia river.

What ever happened to "I will not comply?" Just curious, seems like so much talk...

I think if you look at the numbers reported by the state for private party transfers, it's pretty safe to assume that "will not comply" is likely the norm rather than the exception. Total of 173 "official" transfers in the month of November. I have a feeling there are far more than that going on, just looking at the number of listings between NWFA and AL every month.

And, as Joe13 pointed out, if anyone here did happen to be doing it, saying so would be a violation of the forum rules, so I wouldn't expect to see any discussion of such here on the forum.

 

[The Heretic]

Anyways, now how all that correlates to a registration scheme is up to you and how much you trust the govt is abiding by the laws. Keep in mind there is no accountability and no law preventing backups from being kept but "technically" speaking none of the guns sold in America are registered but there is a paper trail for up to 20 years... indefinitely if the FFL closed shop.

I don't trust the gov. at all, especially with regards to electronic records.

Bear in mind that the gov. has been lying, for decades, about what the NSA does and has been doing for decades, about the data they collect and what they do with it.

Also bear in mind that we have, for years, had secret laws, secret police, secret subpoenas, secret trials, secret prisons, "renditions" (kidnapping people to put them in those prisons), and secret lists of people the gov. wants to kill - including US citizens.

Finally, politicians lie - as a general rule, they lie. If they didn't lie, they wouldn't get elected. The worst part of that, is the fact that we, the voters are to blame for that fact.

 

[Koda]

I agree thats what it says, however OSP doesn't confirm that they do that. There is obviously no penalty to the OSP if they do just like Prozanski did abusing emergency safety passing of SB941 nothing came out of this and was abuse and misuse of the system. There have been cases that did come up showing that indeed records still existed after they were or should have been destroyed.

correct, there is zero accountability not even a law how to store and destroy the records.

 

[DuneHopper]

"But... but... background checks aren't registration!"
Good thing I'm good with a polymer 80% and a Dremel
Anyways, I used to own some guns, but they were lost in a canoe crossing of the Columbia river.
What ever happened to "I will not comply?" Just curious, seems like so much talk...

Id say take a drive down south our neck of the woods where our Sheriff encourages the public to do what they will in that aspect and wont enforce those dragonain laws. The only ones I don't see not complying are all the groups and lobbys that say don't comply yet are .
The ones that are Salem based seem to do nothing but comply where the movement should be its strongest .

 

[DuneHopper]

First rule of fight club....

Good reference material.

 

[IronMonster]

I think the first thing to consider is that so far in both Washington and Oregon this has been a feel good, superficial and meaningless "win" for the anti crowd.

It solves nothing, does nothing and is not enforced. Should we fight it? Of course, but..

Screaming "I will not comply!" with a law that is not enforced just draws attention to you creating the possibility you will piss off the powers that be enough they will be forced to make an example out of you.

The rational thing to do is simply ignore it. Its not an issue (no arrest's, many LEO publicly stating they will not pursue offenders)

There is no reason to get on the internet and publicly announce you intend to violate this meaningless law.

We are not criminals, we should not act like braggart criminals.

Just do what you know is right, act like an adult about it.

My two cents, I know many dont agree.

 

[DuneHopper]

I agree IronMonster except would you not say that if people do not see others not complying or at least stating it they are going to assume reading all the ads that say plus FFL fees or requires BGC of which there are many that all are complying much more then not. There is no ying to the yang ? Even in my OP due to rules here I am careful not to state one should do this. But there are many groups and lobbys that people follow and if they do not realize they are really not wanting to comply then the message would be to do so. As mention ads by everyone boast loudly BGC require plus FFL fees etc doesnt give a message clearly do you think ?

 

[IronMonster]

I agree to a point.

I think getting on the internet and stating the law is meaningless, does not do what it was sold to do and is not enforced anyway is just as effective as saying "I will not comply"

What about this?

I would argue that prior the the passage of the law it was real common for a seller to require a CHL or CPL when no law required them to do so. The fact that many sellers now state that they wish to use a FFL for a transfer in accordance with the "law" may not be a good indication of compliance but just a progression of the same old practice.

 

[STUKA]

If I were going to do a CONSTITUTIONAL face to face deal,without an FFL,I would stick to people I already know,have dealt with in the past,or are obviously non compliant.
I would keep an untitled list in the top drawer of my desk of all the internet personalities I "trust",and go about my business.

This is all hypothetical,of course.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

i wont / have not complied


anyone watching this post take that for what you will. im not incriminating myself by saying that i wont / havent complied because i didnt say i bought or sold any guns since august 9th and i will be suprised if anyone ever can prove anything other than the two i bought august 4th that i may or may not have still.

BTW i have never sold a gun

 

[DuneHopper]

I agree to a point.
I think getting on the internet and stating the law is meaningless, does not do what it was sold to do and is not enforced anyway is just as effective as saying "I will not comply"
What about this?
I would argue that prior the the passage of the law it was real common for a seller to require a CHL or CPL when no law required them to do so. The fact that many sellers now state that they wish to use a FFL for a transfer in accordance with the "law" may not be a good indication of compliance but just a progression of the same old practice.

I too agree to a point as well, a person asking for a CHL (I do this still) do not create a record of sale which is where I have the issue. The government telling me I have to leave a record or condition is none of their business a seller however can set conditions I agree 100% but there would be no condition forced if SB941 had not passed. Now its the seller cannot sell as they want as they legally must abide by SB941 so i get your point but its not an option to the seller legally where asking for a CHL was well within anyone rights as a seller, now its government inspired and enforced or coerced is more like it

I however think a group say like OFF, NWFA etc if they do not agree with compliance should state they support it. If that is their stand. Its far more dangerous for and individual to state they wont comply then a group is where I come from. I am not saying any group should state how to break the law. But like many sheriffs that state that will not enforce that law others could if desired be leaders in that area.
Again if that was their choice to do so it would make a much louder noise then individuals.