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Seattle Times: Prison or Probation for cop selling guns?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by mjbskwim, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    The way I see it,as a cop he understood that criminals will get guns anyway they can and he was just exercising his right as a citizen selling legal firearms at legal gun shows.
    It isn't required to do a backround check as a private seller.
    And the "instruments of death" put me over the top.

    Prison or probation for cop who illegally sold guns? - seattlepi.com

     
  2. moose

    moose northwet coast Well-Known Member

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    Its hard to armchair judge guilt any particular situation. I wasnt there, dont know all the facts and whatever I hear in the media has a bias with it.

    However, in general, they put up signs on the highway that say 'fines double in work zones' so in the same line of thought, convicted cops/prosecuters/judges should get double what anyone else would get.
     
  3. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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    Ridiculous.
     
  4. Bigfoot

    Bigfoot Clack Co. OR Well-Known Member

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    Greed. Sounds like he believed he was above the law too.

    No surprise that the ATF is watching gun shows so don't be dumb like this guy.
     
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  5. Dnaltrop

    Dnaltrop Portland, Oregon Member

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    You can sell your own collection, but if he was indeed actively buying guns for the purpose of selling them (apparently he was reselling Police-seized guns) that is a big No-no without the FFL.
     
  6. drew

    drew OR Well-Known Member

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    Selling a couple hundred guns worth $50k a year is a lot for a private collector. Sounds like he should have had an FFL.

    The federal prosecutors receive high marks for their hyperbole.
     
  7. JGRuby

    JGRuby Portland Oregon New Member

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    Send him to prison - he knew what he was doing was wrong and used his position for profit. He felt he was above the law.


    James Ruby
     
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  8. Toxic6

    Toxic6 Higher then a PDX hipster (~10,000 ft higher) Active Member

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    I thought you had to move more then 14 guns a month to be considered a dealer by the atf....how many was he selling? I'd bet that just like everything fed to us by the media, there is more to the story and a lot left out.

    I agree, the "instruments of death" is a little over the top.

    (and yes, I divided 700 by 3 as the article suggests was his numbers and got an avg of 19 a month....guess he should have got an ffl?)
     
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  9. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    There is NO number of guns. I can sell 100 out of my private collection in 1 day and not need a license. If I buy one gun with the intent to resale for profit you technically need a license.
     
  10. EMP9596

    EMP9596 Two Trees West of Camas, WA. Active Member

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    He must of over stepped the ATF term "engaged in business" terminolgy which is a person who devotes time, attention and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit.
    Therefore any person intending to "engage in the busines of selling firearms yada-yada-yada must first obtain a dealers license.
    The above also applies to C&R' holders.

    This sounds broad but they can probley put it to him?
     
  11. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Well wouldn't this be like getting pulled over for going 35 in a 25 zone but because you have a clean record the nice cop who got some the night before and was in a really good mood sends you on your way with a warning.

    The the same cop catches you doing 65 in a 55 and this time writes you a warning.

    then the same cop pulls you over one night for doing 45 in a 25 and you get out of the car and can't stand up.

    he was warned twice by ATF and by others and still kept speeding down the road.

    He should go to jail if that is the Typical punishment for anyone doing what he did for an extended period of time.

    I seriously doubt the ATF would give me 2 warning and let me get away with it for years before my silly butt was locked up.
     
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  12. Toxic6

    Toxic6 Higher then a PDX hipster (~10,000 ft higher) Active Member

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    I thought it mentioned a specific number in the C&R paperwork....it was probably 7-8 (maybe 9) years ago that i read it so i am not up to date and a little hazy lol.
     
  13. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    If he was working his regular job and doing overtime as well (like most LEO's) then he could have an out as he wasn't doing it as a "principle objective of livelihood and profit"
     
  14. MrNiceGuy

    MrNiceGuy between springfield and shelbyville Well-Known Member

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  15. slingshot1943

    slingshot1943 salem or Well-Known Member

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    We don't need gun laws. I don't see how a person could mark guns up enough to make a living on them. Most busineses mark up at least 100%. No one can do that on a gun often enough to live on it.
     
  16. Navvet

    Navvet Lynden, WA Active Member

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    While I agree with Slingshot, it would be very difficult to make a living selling guns, If you lowball people on used guns and mark them up, you can do OK. I saw one of convicted guys at the gun shows and he was paying very little and selling very high. A legit dealer has many more expenses. The ones I saw, I always thought, how do they get away with that? It was tax evasion in the least.
     
  17. EMP9596

    EMP9596 Two Trees West of Camas, WA. Active Member

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    I have never been able to find a number pretaining to how many firearms a C&R can "Dispose Of" in a given amount of time.
    They do not use the word " Sell " for some reason, maybe this is not encouraged and we do not know about it? So we just dispose of them. But Don't forget to record them in the Bound Book!

    It does state in the introduction of ATF Publication 5300.11 referance guide what I stated in my previous post above:

    ATF term "engaged in business" which is a person who devotes time, attention and labor to be engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade, or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit. Is Objective is the key word here?

    Therefore any person intending to "engage in the business" of selling firearms. Is Intending is another catch word?

    I have read myself silly reading the Federal FA's Regulations Reference Guide and other publications. Plus a few calls to Seattle or PDX ATF to make sure I am staying prim and proper. I seem to always find the little catch words that make me stop and think like in the 921 Definitions section the term "Person" and "Whoever" include any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society,or joint stock company.
    Me thinks they forgot about the saddle horse and the chickens in the backyard though... (<:}-

    I think if they want they can put it to the guy and after they are done with him the IRS will want the taxes, and if he has no records they will come up with a guestamate count, pro rate it and send him a bill.

    Good night all!
    mjd
     
  18. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    What if they were waterguns? The U.S. governments liberal anti-gun policies are alive and well in Seattle. I think some one should take the U.S. Attorneys to task over statements like "instruments of death". Good thing they are not prosecuting drivers using their instruments of death on the nations highways. No doubt the person convicted was justly found guilty. Spad
     
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  19. dehamma

    dehamma portland Member

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    I do feel better knowing that if I violate federal fireams laws knowingly or unknowingly, I will politely be warned to cease and desist!
     
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  20. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    The laws are stated that way so each judge can determine what it says.Unless a lawyer smarter than the judge comes by
    They're all written so we can't quite understand them but the lawyers can determine what they want the laws to say at any given hearing or trial.