Question on gun possession

[fd15k]

My BIL is a Canadian (I am too, but I am also a US citzen) and we shoot, sometimes competitively, when he is down...I KNOW the sporting exemption works, no hunting license required. (unless you are going to hunt) There is even a specific Canadian exemption in the equivilant WA state law.

Just think about this: There were people from all over the world for the Atlanta summer games. It includes shooting sports>>>how come they did not get in trouble? How about the latest winter games in Vancouver, BC? A lot of the athletes trained in WA for that Olympics. I doubt any of them were required to obtain a hunting license so they could "possess" a firearm. Why? Because the shooting sports are exempt, that is why. Always have been.

I never said it doesn't work. But sportin/hunting exception has specific requirements: basically when asked at a border crossing about purpose of the visit to the US, one has to answer "participation in blah blah". Coming here on vacation, and then deciding to go shooting wouldn't work.

 

[chemist]

This is a fascinating thread - and I salute you, fd15k, for your detailed explanations.

But I still don't understand why target shooting in the woods doesn't constitute a legal and legitimate "sporting event."

I could've gotten jammed up on this subject when colleagues from an Asian country came to visit and expressed an interest in shooting with me. None of them had touched a weapon since their military service ended, but they're all safe, responsible, and not prohibited types.

 

[fd15k]

But I still don't understand why target shooting in the woods doesn't constitute a legal and legitimate "sporting event."

It's all about the letter of the law. Here is the exact wording of sporting/hunting exemption :

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts
...
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise
dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or
having reasonable cause to believe that such person -
...
(5) who, being an alien -
...
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as
that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration
and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
...
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person -
...
(5) who, being an alien -
...
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as
that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration
and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
...
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess
in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive
any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.
...
(2) Exceptions. - Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
alien is -
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States;

Now what does being admitted mean ? Like I stated above, it's entering the US at a legal border crossing.
Here is some info from the State Department's website showing context/meaning of the term :

Admission to the U.S. and your Duration of Stay

Upon arriving at a port-of-entry and when admitted, a CBP officer places a small white card, Arrival-Departure Record, Form I-94 or a small green card, Form I-94W for VWP travelers, in your passport. This card is very important as it shows permission to be in the U.S. On this card, the CBP officer records either a date or duration of status (D/S) in the lower right hand corner. If your I-94 or I-94W contains a specific date that signifies the date you must exit the U.S. Some students, exchange program participants, and temporary workers (e.g., foreign diplomats) will be admitted for D/S. If you have D/S on your Form I-94, you may remain in the U.S. as long as you continue your course of studies, remain in your exchange program, or qualifying employment. The date or D/S notation, shown on your Arrival-Departure Record, I-94 or I-94W is the official record of your authorized length of stay in the U.S. You cannot use the visa expiration date in determining or referring to your permitted length of stay in the U.S.

Carefully review information about international visitor admission on the CBP Website.

 

[hermannr]

It's all about the letter of the law. Here is the exact wording of sporting/hunting exemption :

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts
...
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise
dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or
having reasonable cause to believe that such person -
...
(5) who, being an alien -
...
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as
that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration
and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
...
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person -
...
(5) who, being an alien -
...
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as
that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration
and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
...
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess
in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive
any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.
...
(2) Exceptions. - Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
alien is -
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States;

Now what does being admitted mean ? Like I stated above, it's entering the US at a legal border crossing.
Here is some info from the State Department's website showing context/meaning of the term :

Admission to the U.S. and your Duration of Stay

Upon arriving at a port-of-entry and when admitted, a CBP officer places a small white card, Arrival-Departure Record, Form I-94 or a small green card, Form I-94W for VWP travelers, in your passport. This card is very important as it shows permission to be in the U.S. On this card, the CBP officer records either a date or duration of status (D/S) in the lower right hand corner. If your I-94 or I-94W contains a specific date that signifies the date you must exit the U.S. Some students, exchange program participants, and temporary workers (e.g., foreign diplomats) will be admitted for D/S. If you have D/S on your Form I-94, you may remain in the U.S. as long as you continue your course of studies, remain in your exchange program, or qualifying employment. The date or D/S notation, shown on your Arrival-Departure Record, I-94 or I-94W is the official record of your authorized length of stay in the U.S. You cannot use the visa expiration date in determining or referring to your permitted length of stay in the U.S.

Carefully review information about international visitor admission on the CBP Website.

Read more. This crap does not apply to Canadians or citizens of other friendly countries that we do not require visas for them to visit (you can think EU here) All well and good if you are from Egypt or India, but not GB or Canada.

If you are from Canada, GB, Germany, Sweden, Spain....etc etc you do not need a visa to get into the US.

 

[fd15k]

Read more. This crap does not apply to Canadians or citizens of other friendly countries that we do not require visas for them to visit (you can think EU here) All well and good if you are from Egypt or India, but not GB or Canada.

Perhaps you have some links you can share with us ? Otherwise look at the following :

A nonimmigrant alien generally MAY NOT pur-
chase a firearm from an FFL and take possession
of the firearm in the United States. If you violate
this prohibition, you could receive a maximum of
5 or 10 years of imprisonment, depending on the
violation.

<broken link removed>

 

[hermannr]

Perhaps you have some links you can share with us ? Otherwise look at the following :

A nonimmigrant alien generally MAY NOT pur-
chase a firearm from an FFL and take possession
of the firearm in the United States. If you violate
this prohibition, you could receive a maximum of
5 or 10 years of imprisonment, depending on the
violation.

<broken link removed>

First of all, We (the OP) are talking about a guy shooting at the range (or in the woods for that matter) when he visits, not purchasing a firearm from an FFL. Secondly, your own letter from the ATF says they realize they were wrong and they are going to fix the form to correct that error, thirdly, notice that little word "generally"?????

Not generally, but absolutely, a guy from Great Britian MAY go to the rifle range and shoot with his friends...he is not here on any visa, as none is required! Do you know why? Can you read....anyway, I know for a fact that as the LAW is written this is 100% true. I was a green card from 1955 to 1970, and have been a US citizen since 1970.....things like this I have to deal with as my relatives are NOT US citizens.

 

[fd15k]

First of all, We (the OP) are talking about a guy shooting at the range (or in the woods for that matter) when he visits, not purchasing a firearm from an FFL. Secondly, your own letter from the ATF says they realize they were wrong and they are going to fix the form to correct that error, thirdly, notice that little word "generally"?????

Not generally, but absolutely, a guy from Great Britian MAY go to the rifle range and shoot with his friends...he is not here on any visa, as none is required! Do you know why? Can you read....anyway, I know for a fact that as the LAW is written this is 100% true. I was a green card from 1955 to 1970, and have been a US citizen since 1970.....things like this I have to deal with as my relatives are NOT US citizens.

This is my last attempt.

If you are not eligable to purchase a firearm from
an FFL to possess in the United States, you MAY
NOT have someone who is eligible purchase one
for you. If you violate this prohibition, both you
and the person who purchases the firearm for you
could receive a maximum of 5 or 10 years of
imprisonment, depending on the violation.

A nonimmigrant alien generally MAY NOT pur-
chase ammunition from an FFL or a nonlicensee to
possess in the United States. If you violate this
prohibition, you could receive a maximum of 10
years of imprisonment.

THIS PROHIBITION APPLIES UNLESS YOU ESTABLISH
THAT YOU:
Were admitted to the United States for lawful
hunting or sporting purposes or are in posses-
sion of a valid hunting license or permit
lawfully issued in the United States.

---------------------------------------

The Act amended section 922(g)(5)
and (d)(5) to expand the list of persons
who may not lawfully ship, transfer,
possess, or receive firearms or
ammunition to include, with certain
exceptions, aliens admitted to the
United States under a nonimmigrant
visa, as that term is defined in section
101(a)(26) of the Immigration and
Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)).
A nonimmigrant visa does not itself
provide nonimmigrant status. A visa
simply facilitates travel, and expedites
inspection and admission to the United
States, by showing that the State
Department does not believe the
individual to be inadmissible and has
authorized him or her to apply for
admission at a U.S. port of entry.
Moreover, just under fifty percent of
nonimmigrant
aliens
need
a
nonimmigrant visa to enter the United
States. All other nonimmigrant aliens
fall within various categories which are
exempt from needing a nonimmigrant
visa (e.g., participation in the Visa
Waiver Program; Canadian visitors).
The legislative history of the Act
demonstrates Congress intended the
new prohibition to cover all aliens in the
United States in a nonimmigrant
classification (as defined by section
101(a)(15) of the Immigration and
Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15))),
not merely nonimmigrants who possess
a visa. Therefore, we interpret the Act
to apply to any alien in the United
States in a nonimmigrant classification
and have provided an applicable
definition of "nonimmigrant alien" in
this temporary rule.

www.atf.gov/publications/download/q...in-2002-volume-1-treasury-decisions-sub-c.pdf

 

[pchewn]

So who's on first?
What's on second?

You have to admire the SIMPLICITY of the English gun laws (they are prohibited), compared to the overly complex (although somewhat less restrictive) gun laws in the USA.

Get a hunting license, the cheapest one you can to cover your butt. It costs what? --- about 0.05% (.0005) of your plane ticket.

 

[chemist]

Really fascinating reading these twists and turns of the language - I appreciate all your efforts at explanation, fd15k.

Now if my friends and I have exchanged emails saying "Let's shoot targets when you get to the US," doesn't that mean that (one of) the purposes for which they were admitted is for the target-shooting "sporting event?"

 

[fd15k]

Now if my friends and I have exchanged emails saying "Let's shoot targets when you get to the US," doesn't that mean that (one of) the purposes for which they were admitted is for the target-shooting "sporting event?"

Here is an interesting view from the other side of the border :

However, when selling a firearm to a non-resident who is taking possession of the firearm and who will personally export it, the FFL must see a valid State-issued hunting licence or permit (unless the non-resident falls into another exception category, such as a diplomat or law enforcement officer.) Other accepted documentation, besides the hunting licence/permit, is an invitation to a competitive target or sport-shooting event, but the non-resident must meet the 90-day residency requirement.
...
...
The non-resident must provide U.S. Customs with a pre-approved U.S. import permit and evidence that they fall into an exemption category (by providing a valid State hunting licence/permit or an invitation to compete in a target shooting event or to display firearms or ammunition at a sports or hunting trade show sponsored by a national, State or local firearms trade organization devoted to the competitive use or other sporting use of firearms) before they will be allowed to import firearms or ammunition.

U.S. Regulations For Non-Residents Purchasing And Importing Firearms And Ammunition

So basically, I suspect that in order to qualify one has to have an invitation from a registered company or an organization at the time of the admission, and invitation from a private party would not suffice.