Question on black powder and modern powders.

[Pacific NW Rider]

First off, I don't own a black powder firearm. I understand that substitution of powder could be fatal in a firearm. So my question is one of curiosity not something I would try or recommend. i Don't need a lecture on safety. Not trying to evoke a flurry of adverse counter culture comments here.

A shooting and reloading buddy, recently bought an in line black powder rifle. Talking about shooting it and the powders available, the engineer in me, got me wondering why there isn't a workable modern powder load which would work in a black powder weapon? Since there are hundreds of modern smokeless powders, which have different burn rates this seems feasible. I know Savage makes a rifle which shoots both, so this is something others have considered commercially, and apparently addressed in design.

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[osprey]

Sorry can't abide by request. Do Not use smokeless powders in any firearm designed for blackpowder or bp substitutes. Manufactures that make rifles that shoot both are starting with barrel blanks designed for smokeless powder pressures. All black powder rifles modern or otherwise are designed for black powder pressures only. Blackhorn 209 powder is as close to smokeless powder as you can get and still be safe in rifle designed for black powder. If you doubt me have your buddy call the manufacturer of his blackpowder rifle and ask them about your idea. I have taken a modern cva single shot rifle in 45-70 and had the breech threaded for a breech plug that accepts lr primers. Being the barrel was designed originally for smokeless powders,I can now safely shoot bp, bp subs and smokeless powder behind various projectiles, all muzzle loaded. If you would like some direction regarding this angle, I would be more than happy to oblige.

 

[Pacific NW Rider]

Sorry can't abide by request. Do Not use smokeless powders in any firearm designed for blackpowder or bp substitutes. Manufactures that make rifles that shoot both are starting with barrel blanks designed for smokeless powder pressures. All black powder rifles modern or otherwise are designed for black powder pressures only. Blackhorn 209 powder is as close to smokeless powder as you can get and still be safe in rifle designed for black powder. If you doubt me have your buddy call the manufacturer of his blackpowder rifle and ask them about your idea. I have taken a modern cva single shot rifle in 45-70 and had the breech threaded for a breech plug that accepts lr primers. Being the barrel was designed originally for smokeless powders,I can now safely shoot bp, bp subs and smokeless powder behind various projectiles, all muzzle loaded. If you would like some direction regarding this angle, I would be more than happy to oblige.

First of all, I was not proposing doing this. . Nor was I asking for a load. What I was asking is why, with all the available powders, there isn't a feasible load of modern powder. If you stop and think about this for a minute, it would appear ALL modern powders were substitutes for black powder as they are better. A powder load, is a chemical reaction at a specific rate of reaction leading to the requisite pressure over time, to move a projectile down the barrel safely. I would think, that with all the various powders, it is conceivable, that a load, other than black powder, could create the equivalent reaction. I suspect the reason no one will (or should) try this is just what you mentioned, the unknow "chamber" pressure safety thresholds for antique as well as modern black power guns.

 

[osprey]

You would have to have testing equipment to verify loads were staying within safe bp pressure range and in a manner that was safe if the barrel gives up while trying to find what works. Even if you were to find a smokeless powder load that was safe it would probably not yield any higher performance than black powder or bp subs. Hope that helps.

 

[Pacific NW Rider]

You would have to have testing equipment to verify loads were staying within safe bp pressure range and in a manner that was safe if the barrel gives up while trying to find what works. Even if you were to find a smokeless powder load that was safe it would probably not yield any higher performance than black powder or bp subs. Hope that helps.

Thanks.. I suspect another reason this isn't a good plan, is such a substitution would carry a huge liability, even if a commercial powder manufacture put out some "loading recommendations". I'm highly aware of the min-max reloading specs, and the associated bullet weights, with conventional modern powders. Loading in the field with such narrow powder margins, might yield variations, which may not go well.

One of the reasons, I was simply pondering this is in a SHTF situation, and PB isn't available, what options would a PB shooter have?

Thanks for weighing in...

 

[osprey]

Another reason smokeless powder is not suited for use in a bp rifle is it has a variable non linear burn rate equating to variable peak pressure. This is mostly controlled in cartridges by case overall volume compared to charge level and other lesser factors like primer choice. Black powder on the other hand has a very linear burn rate the more you put in the more pressure is created. With black powder guns you are always talking about somewhat compressed loads so you can see there would be a very limited window for any smokeless powder to function safely and their burn rate characteristic's makes them a very dangerous proposition. I am sure many people have tried smokeless powder in a bp muzzleloader once!

 

[Pacific NW Rider]

Another reason smokeless powder is not suited for use in a bp rifle is it has a variable non linear burn rate equating to variable peak pressure. This is mostly controlled in cartridges by case overall volume compared to charge level and other lesser factors like primer choice. Black powder on the other hand has a very linear burn rate the more you put in the more pressure is created. With black powder guns you are always talking about somewhat compressed loads so you can see there would be a very limited window for any smokeless powder to function safely and their burn rate characteristic's makes them a very dangerous proposition. I am sure many people have tried smokeless powder in a bp muzzleloader once!

Great observation. That's the type of detail, I was wondering about. Thanks. Since the compression of loads would be a huge variable between shooters, I can see how that, alone, is a major reason this could go very wrong... I have to laugh at your tag on doing something once. I use that a lot, when I hear "Do you think that will work? " You helped me understand that because these powders are so different, the idea of subtitling them cannot be done in any safe manner. Thanks for taking the time to discuss.

 

[osprey]

Sorry for coming off like a nanny to start but my intentions were good. I would hate to see anyone reading this ruin a rifle or cause themselves bodily harm. I never considered my cva 45-70 single shot ml conversion for shtf before, but following your line of thought, it would be pretty versatile. Being able to burn smokeless powder, black powder substitutes and holy black puts it in a whole other light.

 

[crstrode]

Do not put gasoline in a diesel engine either.

 

[CLT65]

Another reason smokeless powder is not suited for use in a bp rifle is it has a variable non linear burn rate equating to variable peak pressure. This is mostly controlled in cartridges by case overall volume compared to charge level and other lesser factors like primer choice. Black powder on the other hand has a very linear burn rate the more you put in the more pressure is created. With black powder guns you are always talking about somewhat compressed loads so you can see there would be a very limited window for any smokeless powder to function safely and their burn rate characteristic's makes them a very dangerous proposition. I am sure many people have tried smokeless powder in a bp muzzleloader once!

Light smokeless loads have been used in black powder cartridge firearms since the invention of smokeless powder. One example is loading data for trapdoor Springfield rifles.

Like you say though, in a cartridge case the volume and the load are very specific and controlled. In a muzzle loader I wouldn't even know where to start, nor would I want to. Maybe it could be done by someone who really knew what they were doing, but I think the admonition to not do it is a very good one.

 

[oremike]

Black powder has no "burn rate" it detonates by that I mean it releases all it's energy all at once. Generally less at than 18,000 psi. Modern powders have a "burn rate" so even the fastest powders release their energy over time in a controled manor.

 

[Member 38805]

Before talking smokeless vs. black powder loading, we really need to separate whether we're talking black powder cartridge rifles, or muzzleloaders? The two black powder weapons are quite different when it comes to loading and safe powders.
Although I hate Pyrodex, Triple 7, Blackhorn 209, or other BP alternatives designed specifically to replicate real BP; they are alternatives to real BP that work OK. They should give safe shooting if done per the manufacturer's recommendations.
As for smokeless loads for BP cartridge rifles, there are numerous smokeless powders that have been used for many decades safely, and some even have lower chamber pressures at the same muzzle velocities of BP loaded cartridges.
I've shot smokeless in my BP era 1800's single shot cartridge rifles for over 40 years, and with very good results. I do shoot some BP if the match requires everyone to shoot BP to compete, but a lot of my fun shooting, or hunting with old guns is done with smokeless loads.
4198 in particular produces chamber pressures in my .44-77 Rolling Block that is only 12,000 psi, where a equal BP load is much higher for equal velocity.

 

[Pacific NW Rider]

Before talking smokeless vs. black powder loading, we really need to separate whether we're talking black powder cartridge rifles, or muzzleloaders? The two black powder weapons are quite different when it comes to loading and safe powders.
Although I hate Pyrodex, Triple 7, Blackhorn 209, or other BP alternatives designed specifically to replicate real BP; they are alternatives to real BP that work OK. They should give safe shooting if done per the manufacturer's recommendations.
As for smokeless loads for BP cartridge rifles, there are numerous smokeless powders that have been used for many decades safely, and some even have lower chamber pressures at the same muzzle velocities of BP loaded cartridges.
I've shot smokeless in my BP era 1800's single shot cartridge rifles for over 40 years, and with very good results. I do shoot some BP if the match requires everyone to shoot BP to compete, but a lot of my fun shooting, or hunting with old guns is done with smokeless loads.
4198 in particular produces chamber pressures in my .44-77 Rolling Block that is only 12,000 psi, where a equal BP load is much higher for equal velocity.

Thanks for the info. I see what I think is a common thread with the use of modern powder in BP firearms. The advent of the cartridge. That appears to provide the control and consistency necessary to use a modern powder. Its all verry interesting. Great educational opportunity. Thanks again to all who contributed.