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Question about any Oregon police vs open carry?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Gunner3456, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    Mods, if I have this in the wrong place, please move it?

    First, I have a valid Oregon CHL but sometimes I open carry if I'm just going down to the local rural store, etc. The owners don't mind and know me well.

    In some states, I understand that police can stop you and require ID. In others, I understand they can't. How far off am I? What is Oregon's law?

    I'd like to know what happens if police stop me as I'm walking to or from my pickup. Do I have to give them ID? Do they have to have "probable cause" that I've committed a crime to detain me, or am I free to go unless arrested? Can I remain silent and just keep walking?

    For those who don't know me or remember, I have a relative who hates me and is very high up in the Medford Police Department. A couple of years ago he made some false charges against me which cost me my CHL until I won the case (and spent a ton of money on good lawyers) and I of course have my CHL back, and have had for some time now. I have a chip on my shoulder about cooperating any more than I have to with that department.

    So, If a police officer thinks he sees a concealed "print," or sees an open carry, does he have a right to stop me and if so do I have to ID myself or answer any questions?

    I was stopped the other day and I cooperated and showed my D/L and my CHL but I hated it. I was very polite but rather burning inside. I know I'm being picked on.

    Thank you very much. I haven't kept abreast of any new laws that may be out there.

    Cliff
     
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  2. Morpheus

    Morpheus Columbia Gorge Anyway, back on the farm.

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  3. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    In both cases here the citizens stopped and debated with the police. Could the guys have just kept walking instead of engaging the police?

    Yes, concealed is concealed, but I'm also asking about open carry, or if an officer believes he sees a print.
     
  4. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    Read ORS 166.360 to .380 . Oregon has made a provision in their law that is requested by LE, you must DISPLAY (not necessary give them control of) your CHL IF!!! you are in a PUBLIC BUILDING (as defined by .360)

    Otherwise, if you are just out and about, and not suspected of criminal activity (OC is not criminal activity), they have no right to demand your CHL. They can ask, and you can refuse, but they cannot demand. How you respond to the request for your CHL is up to you. Personally, I would not without protest... as in, "am I free to go"? if they say I am not free to go, my next response would be, "and what criminal activity am I suspected of?" . Do not physically resist or get nasty, be polite, but also do not consensually co-operate. If they force the issue, you can sue them under 42 USC 1983. If you consent to their seizure of your person or your property you can not come back at them in court,

    1983 suits are how we stop this type of illegal activity by LE. Don't expect to get rich, just to change the way they do business to conform to the law.

    This is not OR specific, but a lot of references are from other states. https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/images/LE_Legal_Update_ current through August 2 2012.pdf
     
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  5. Morpheus

    Morpheus Columbia Gorge Anyway, back on the farm.

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    Keep in mind, none of this is legal advice and I'm not a lawyer.

    I don't know what would happen if you just walk by and ignore them. Could get ugly. I would advise investing in a recording device of some kind. And tell them you are recording them, if they stop you.
     
  6. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    Yes, my cell phone will take video with sound. Thanks for the answers so far.
     
  7. DieselScout

    DieselScout S Clackamas County Well-Known Member

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    Honestly with your history, I would talk with a lawyer or maybe contact OFF.
     
  8. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    I've already spent a hundred grand on lawyers, and I won. I flat out won. This actually works to my benefit once an officer figures out who I am. They don't want anything to do with me.

    My attorneys made it clear that any further interference with me would be considered harassment and retaliation for my winning the case. It would be considered retaliation on behalf of their boss, no matter what they do.

    I simply want to know if a police officer in Oregon can require me to stop and talk to him if he lacks probable cause to believe I've committed a crime, and that includes concealed and open carry. I also want to know if I have to stop and identify myself, lacking probable cause.

    Yes, attorneys are handy and also often wrong. I figured the guys on here would be more informed about what's been happening in this area.

    Thanks.
     
  9. Norm0931

    Norm0931 Hillsboro, OR Sgt. Sheep Silver Vendor 2016 Volunteer

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    DeBerry v US says, "No." The mere fact of possessing a firearm does not give a police officer the right to conduct a terry stop. Now, if they have a reasonable suspicion that you are a felon or have broken some other law then they can stop you but, if you are JUST carrying a firearm then then that can't be the reason they stop you.

    If the exchange is NOT a terry stop then you are free to say you don't want to speak with them and go on about your business. If they detain you or restrict your ability to leave EVEN with projected force (they make you feel like you can't leave) they are violating your 4th amendment right.

    I'm not a lawyer but, that's the general consensus of DeBerry v US's case law.
     
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  10. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. That's what I thought but again, I haven't been keeping up.
     
  11. lowly monk

    lowly monk Beaverton, Oregon. Just a guy. Bronze Supporter

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  12. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    US Supreme Court: Delaware V Prouse. It is not lawful to stop someone for a licensed activity only for the purpose of checking the license
     
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  13. duane black

    duane black Washington Well-Known Member

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    Fixed that for you...

    J/K Gunner...

    Sounds like you were put through absolute hell. I wouldn't trust that department either if I was you. :paranoid:
     
  14. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    I think you already know what you need to do. There are good police and bad. There are good and bad citizens.
    Save the anger for a different day. If they go no more than stop you, just go with it and comply. You know what they are capable of and at worst you might go to jail if they are having a bad day, at best you will spend a lot of money fighting.
    Be courtious and reserved and eventually they will tire of hassling you.
    Confrontational behavior seldom works out to your benefit.
    Be a good citizen and exercize your rights, but be intelligent about it.
    You might win legal battles, but its usually some attorney that ends up with all your money. If it is a family thing with the cop, maybe move out of his reach.
    I would rather use my money for good food and ammo :) Not supporting land sharks.
     
  15. Smitty79

    Smitty79 Tigard Member

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    What he said. An armed society is a polite society. If you are carrying, you may have a legal right to be ornery, but it's not ethical. When I am carrying, I feel especially obligated to be cooperative and polite.
     
  16. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I've mentioned being ornery. I've always been polite.

    But I can ask "am I under arrest, or am I free to go?" politely, over and over until they get tired of it.

    See, my first statement is always "You stopped me only because I won a big court case against your boss and he's told you to take every opportunity to get even with me, right?" "You're just trying to make me pay for that, right?"

    Then they know who I am because they've all heard of me and I become a hot potato that they don't want, even if they are new. As I said, I take advantage of it. I don't think they'd write me a speeding ticket with that accusation hanging over them.

    But I didn't want to get into that. I just wanted to know what the law is now, and I've learned.

    Thank you very much.

    Cliff
     
  17. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    I have seen this before many times. What happens generally is they will scrutinize everything you do until someday they find something wrong.
    Its a real pain in the ......
    A simple recommendation would be to move from their area of control. Then avoid it for a while.
    Its a personal choice, but it depends on how much you want to go through. That thin blue line really does exist and
    they are all on one side of it and the citizens are on the other. Just a fact of life.
     
  18. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Portland Completely Out of Ammo

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  19. BAMCIS

    BAMCIS Eugene Well-Known Member

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    I've been arguing this also extends to fishing and/or hunting for years at that ifish forum. I was told I was outta my mind and gave up on trying to educate those fools.

    Although I haven't been stopped while driving in years, I have been stopped several times in my boat. Usually while fishing.........

    The stop goes something like this:

    LEO: "Had any luck?"

    Me: "Yeah, I actually won a little last weekend playing Texas hold 'em at Spirit Mountain."

    LEO: "I'm taking about fishing."

    Me: "I'm doing anything wrong?"

    LEO: "No. I just want to check your license and tag."

    Me: "Then with all due respect to you sir, I see no justification the governement has a valid and legal basis to stop me while I'm conducting a prima facie legal activity. You said it yourself, I'm not doing anything wrong. So please just leave me alone."

    The LEO is usually flustered by now.

    I tell them I understand s/he's just doing their job and that I'm not trying to be difficult, but this stop is unconstitutional.

    The LEO will again ask to see my license. At this point I tell him/her that I will cooperate just to get them to leave me alone, but request that they note I am doing so under objection as I believe it violates my constitutional rights.

    I'm very careful in my phrasing by trying not to make it personal against the LEO and am polite and make no moves which can be taken as aggressive.

    Assume for a moment, after this conversation, it was discovered I was doing something illegal such as to many fish, untagged fish, or wrong species, the case would be tossed out as soon as it hit court because of a bad search. That assumes a district attorney would even file the case.

    To be clear, I am not an attorney and am not making legal advice but have studied search and seizure. The old saying goes, YMMV. But be ready as Taku just said, the LEO could make a project out of you. In the OP's case if a LEO does then I believe the OP may already have a pretty good foundation for a harassment lawsuit against the department, city, the LEO's bosses both professionally and personally, and the LEO both professionally and personally. It's called vicarious liability.

    Another thing the OP could do is go outside of the department. Make a report to the local district attorney AND the attorney general in Salem. This way if soemthing does come about your report is on record, bolstering your harassment case.
     
  20. dallen1x

    dallen1x Wil_Val, OR Active Member

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    Oregon and Washington have no 'stop & ID' laws. If your driving or touching your car then you're in control of a motor vehicle and must show your drivers license.