Poll: Parent leaves gun unsecured, child uses it in a crime, should the parent be held responsible?

[Chee-to]

Our "public" schools are loaded with potential weapons, baseball bats, hammers, javelins, knives, chemicals, all kinds of shop "tools", etc. etc. a deadly weapon, is a deadly weapon, even if it doesn't go "bang". Is the school criminally responsible if a student under their supervision obtains a "tool" (weapon) secured or unsecured, and kills/injurers someone ? BTW, in this day of age, if a shooter enters a school and kills, why isn't the school system held criminally responsible for not doing everything possible "securing" our kids ? They know what works !!!

 

[SmawGunner]

I answered hell NO ! This poll is also on OregonLive.
http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/06/should_oregon_make_it_a_crime.html
The Oregon live poll has more conservative 2nd A readers than NW Firearms. That does not surprise me anymore that a large majority of NW Firearms are always just way too eager to give up their rights.

 

[Riot]

The test is that if someone got ahold of it, then it was unsecured, regardless of what you may have done - it wasn't enough.

Every single security measure can be defeated...even a gun on your person. Someone can sneak up on you, bash you over the head and take your pistol just as they can break into your house, steal your gun safe and machine shop it open.

Having said that, I still think we should hold parents accountable for their children. Now I'm not proposing any new laws, regulations or even lock-up requirements...but let's be honest, some people probably shouldn't be parents- let alone be gun totting parents.

Leave emotion out of it. Stop comparing this topic with rape.

If I choose to dress slutty (not secure my gun), which is legal, and someone rapes me (takes illegal possession of me), and then robs me or kills me (commits an additional crime with me), it's my fault.

If I left a loaded gun out and my <broken link removed> how am I not at fault? Explain this to me. Explain how leaving a loaded gun out is the equivalent to wearing slutty clothes and being raped or how it's like leaving your car keys out. You can't.
Here's the deal...

Parents need to involve themselves in their children's lives...they need to seek help when they need it and impose tough love to teach their children.

Elliot Rodger? Sounds like his parents really tried to deal with him and his issues....Elliot Rodger was also 22 so they should be held accountable for his actions.

Adam Lanza? His mother knew he wasn't taking his meds, knew he wasn't going to therapy and at least should have known he planning out the attack (or at least known he had an unhealthy fixation with other active shooters).

So it all depends....it depends on the child, it depends on the parent, and it depends on the conditions. You throwing a loaded gun in your car and your 3-year shot himself? Yeah, I've got a problem with that. You leave an unloaded gun in a closet and your 15 year old son takes it, finds the ammo then shoots up the school because he was bullied? I still think you, as a parent, should be held responsible- but not because of the gun...because you failed as a freeking parent!

 

[Doc In UPlace]

If I choose to dress slutty (not secure my gun), which is legal, and someone rapes me (takes illegal possession of me), and then robs me or kills me (commits an additional crime with me), it's my fault.

Possibly the most wrong post made in the history of the internet, if that was the entire opinion. Well done, whoever it was.

Or, good satire, if not...

 

[Greywhisker]

Leave emotion out of it. Stop comparing this topic with rape.

I haven't made a single emotional argument, I loathe them. I did, however, make a completely rational parallel regarding criminal responsibility and the logical application thereof.

If I left a loaded gun out and my <broken link removed> how am I not at fault? Explain this to me. Explain how leaving a loaded gun out is the equivalent to wearing slutty clothes and being raped or how it's like leaving your car keys out. You can't.

Leaving a loaded gun within reach of a three year-old is a completely different scenario than what's being discussed. Changing the scenario to a child not old enough to know the difference between right and wrong is a good example of using an emotional argument, however.

The slutty clothes parallel is the old "she had it coming" nonsense some scum use to rational their illegal behavior. It's just as ridiculous to say a victim's rape is their criminal fault because of the clothes she wore as it is to say, a legal gun owner is criminally responsible for someone else's illegal actions with your illegally obtained gun. Likewise, leaving your car keys unsecured should not make you criminally responsible for someone else's illegal use of those keys.

Possibly the most wrong post made in the history of the internet, if that was the entire opinion. Well done, whoever it was.

Or, good satire, if not...

You're right, it is wrong to think the victim of a crime should be held criminally responsible for said crime. That was the point.

 

[JRuby]

In my opinion you bring a child into the world you have accepted ownership of that childs action until they are 18 ( an adult ) if you dont want that responsibilty dont have the child. I chose not to have children, however it appears that many that do choose to have children do not want to take ownership of thier childrens actions - to me this is a major problem with our society and what has changed in the last 40 years plus. Parents should be responsible for thier childrens actions in my opinion. In this last case it appears the shooter was a church going, anti Obama, invovled in the NROTC - in short a typical conservative so dont blame it all on the liberals.

 

[Chee-to]

In my opinion you bring a child into the world you have accepted ownership of that childs action until they are 18 ( an adult ) if you dont want that responsibilty dont have the child. I chose not to have children, however it appears that many that do choose to have children do not want to take ownership of thier childrens actions - to me this is a major problem with our society and what has changed in the last 40 years plus. Parents should be responsible for thier childrens actions in my opinion. In this last case it appears the shooter was a church going, anti Obama, invovled in the NROTC - in short a typical conservative so dont blame it all on the liberals.

OK you don't have kids, that doesn't relieve you of the "responsibility" of not securing your firearms, If a 17 year old runaway (lots of these in Portland) breaks into you house, car, or if some how disarms you personally , and uses it to to commit a crime, or actually a mass killing, are you criminally responsible, it's "your secured" firearm they used ? Ya, I know that could NEVER happen to you, BUT....................

 

[JRuby]

OK you don't have kids, that doesn't relieve you of the "responsibility" of not securing your firearms, If a 17 year old runaway (lots of these in Portland) breaks into you house, car, or if some how disarms you personally , and uses it to to commit a crime, or actually a mass killing, are you criminally responsible, it's "your" "secured" firearm they used ? Ya, I know that could NEVER happen to you, BUT....................

I have a safe and cameras and dogs and locked doors - what esle and how else do you figure I have to secure my guns? The fact that until a child reaches legal age should and does not releive the parents of repsonsibility of the actions of thier children. If you cannot raise / spend the time with your childeren then dont have them - cut and dry. Dont make your little brat my problem. A parenting problem on your end does not make it my concern or issue.

 

[Chee-to]

I have a safe and cameras and dogs and locked doors - what esle and how else do you figure I have to secure my guns? The fact that until a child reaches legal age should and does not releive the parents of repsonsibility of the actions of thier children. If you cannot raise / spend the time with your childeren then dont have them - cut and dry. Dont make your little brat my problem. A parenting problem on your end does not make it my concern or issue.

Don't care what you got, answer the question, "are you criminally responsible" if some how a kid gets a hold of one of your "secured firearms" and kills someone ?

 

[JRuby]

Works both ways - you answer my questions and I will answer yours.

 

[Chee-to]

Works both ways - you answer my questions and I will answer yours.

Don't like it when the shoe's on the other foot, HUH ??

 

[JRuby]

The answer is no for at least two simple reasons:
1 ) I take precautions to prevent access to my firearms
2) I only have my wife and I to take care, and am repsonsible for our actions and only our actions.

Neither of those two situations prevent a perent of an underage person from being repsonsible for that underage persons actions. Yes parents should be held strictly accountable for thier childrens behavior til they are of legal age. Parents should be held to the full extent of the law. When this starts to occur we will have started to fix our probelms with society.

 

[JRuby]

Don't like it when the shoe's on the other foot, HUH ??

I amswered yorus now your turn - its on your foot now.

 

[addiction]

Parents are/and should be responsible for their offspring until they are 18, it is that simple for me anyway. All these strawman arguments about someone breaking in or committing a crime are off topic from how I read the poll question, the question is if your child gets a hold of your gun. I would extend that to if a child house guest of yours gets a hold of your gun as well, since the assumption is you invited that child into your home.

If your underage child get a hold of your gun, then you are responsible....

 

[JRuby]

Parents are/and should be responsible for their offspring until they are 18, it is that simple for me anyway. All these strawman arguments about someone breaking in or committing a crime are off topic from how I read the poll question, the question is if your child gets a hold of your gun. I would extend that to if a child house guest of yours gets a hold of your gun as well, since the assumption is you invited that child into your home.

If your underage child get a hold of your gun, then you are responsible....

I agree - I feel that if I have invited someone into my house I am repsonsible for the safety of that individual providing that they are polite and courteous while in my home - if not they will be asked to leave.

 

[Koda]

By the way, if were going to make the parents responsible for not securing their guns then were also making the non-parents responsible for the actions of ANYONE who steals their gun for not securing them enough. This includes everything from your vehicle when your dining out at a GFZ to your home when your away for a week on vacation in Mexico..
Seeing as how were ignoring the real problem and enacting MORE gun control laws.... because clearly here the gun is the problem.... sound familiar?

 

[JRuby]

By the way, if were going to make the parents responsible for not securing their guns then were also making the non-parents responsible for the actions of ANYONE who steals their gun for not securing them enough. This includes everything from your vehicle when your dining out at a GFZ to your home when your away for a week on vacation in Mexico..
Seeing as how were ignoring the real problem and enacting MORE gun control laws.... because clearly here the gun is the problem.... sound familiar?

I have committed no crime by not securing my firearm ( I do however secure them ) The person who takes it without permission or the person that steals the firearm has broken the law. If that person is under 18 then it is the parents repsonsibility and the underage person /s that broke the law - how is this so hard to understand. I dont want more laws _ I want parents to take repsonsibility for thier own children. You apprently feel that the parents are not to be held responsible for thier own childrens actions.

 

[Chee-to]

I amswered yorus now your turn - its on your foot now.

Yes, a parent "should" be responsible for "teaching" their children right from wrong and gun safety whether there's a firearm in the house or not, how a parent disciplines a child has been legislated. It's apparent you don't have, or worked with kids. the deal is, no matter what you teach, no mater how hard you beat it into a kids head, a kids going to do what a kids going to, not an excuse just a fact, teaching ain't learning. Look at our "public school system" from preschool on they are taught that guns are bad and only good for killing , and only cops and military should have them, hows that working out??. Maybe, thousands of parents in Portland should be incarcerated for their kids being in gangs, (personally I like that.) Now, you say you're not criminally responsible if a kid somehow gets a hold of your firearm, but the parent is...................Seems a "tad" hypocritical..................

 

[Koda]

If a non-parent isnt commiting a crime by not securing their firearm then how is a parent commiting a crime by the same rule?

 

[JRuby]

In order for a kid to get one of my fierarms they are going to have to do something illegal. I do not leave them lying aroud. There is no law that I know fo where I live that says I cant ave a gun lying on my nightstadn while I am at work. You parents think that those of use with out kids have to answer to those that do have kids. KIDS ARE THE PARENTS PROBLEM - DO NOT MAKE YOUR PROBLEM MY PROBLEM. I pay taxes to support the schools not because I want to but have to and maybe just maybe it is a form of paying for the education I recieved. When I was a kid you spoke when spoken too, you treated adults with repsect - you in general had manners - today these kids are not only disrespectful but find the solution to be shooting someone or someones - who is responsible - to me it is the parents as well as the kids that comitt these crimes.

BY the way we could be talking about anything that could be used as weapon in this case we are talking about the shooting at Reynolds Highschool - kinda.