Poll: Parent leaves gun unsecured, child uses it in a crime, should the parent be held responsible?

[JRuby]

If a non-parent isnt commiting a crime by not securing their firearm then how is a parent commiting a crime by the same rule?

I dont have kids in my household - or my surrounding or in my world - parents by being parents need to secure thier household from thier children.

 

[Koda]

I dont have kids in my household - or my surrounding or in my world - parents by being parents need to secure thier household from thier children.

I understand what your saying about parenting, but there are too many variables to parenting to control all situations for all families. You chose not to be a parent but until you actually raise a child, even a good child with straight A's will you understand.

 

[Fast Eddie]

I haven't read the entire thread, but a poll at least to me, seems to lose something in the margins, people will look at the poll and consider the results, rather than the content of the discussion that follows.

Our justice system, does not perfectly vet these tragedies. When the shooter takes his own life, it does not satisfy the need for justice.

We are increasingly a house divided against it's self here in the US. It is difficult to legislate a systemic solution to presence of evil, especially when we, as a society can't agree on what is good and what is evil.

The world, and evil people in particular, see this and seem understand this about us, it continues to be to our detriment. I don't say this to politicize anything, only to point out that mindset has always been paramount to solving any problem.

 

[Greywhisker]

This is interesting. In the US the age of criminal responsibility starts between 6 and 13, depending on the state. This is driven by the physiological fact of our brain's ability to determine and act conscientiously. The legal age of majority is a society driven number based on economic feasibility of self-sustainment and then made concrete by governmental policy like voting and draft registration. This age was much lower when agriculture was the norm because 13 y/o's were working and hunting and essentially able to live on their own as was common. Developmentally, a parent's influence lasts for the remainder of their lifetime. So, really, a parent should always be criminally responsible for their offspring's actions, no matter what age they are. Unless, something magical happens at age 18 that somehow sever's all ties between parent and child.

 

[JRuby]

If a non-parent isnt commiting a crime by not securing their firearm then how is a parent commiting a crime by the same rule?

So dont secure them if you have kids but if your child goes on a shooting spree, a knifing, a whatever the parents are repsonsible for that childs action are guilty because of that. While your at it let your kids play with matches and gasoline and let them run with knifes ands scissors. Parents by definition of being a prent are responsible for those underage that they have guardianship over.

 

[JRuby]

I understand what your saying about parenting, but there are too many variables to parenting to control all situations for all families. You chose not to be a parent but until you actually raise a child, even a good child with straight A's will you understand.

Too me that is like saying their are too many variables when raising a dog - you might get a good one or bad one. In my opinion those are excuses you make when you are having problems managing your child. Wether you have a good child or bad child the parents are the parents and must take ownership of that child and its actions till they are on thier own. The lack of ownership and the excuses by the parents to me is what is changing our youth today, becoming tomorrows problems.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

I keep liquor at my house, my kids and their friends steal it, get drunk and steal my car killing people in an accident I guess I'm financially responsible because they're my kids. But I don't feel a charge of negligence should apply. If the kid had no prior history of this sort of thing..........
I guess what I'm saying is whatever laws we have now are enough. We need no special laws pertaining to guns on this issue! The Lawyers as it is now will get their pound of flesh with existing laws if you are even remotely negligent.

 

[JRuby]

This is interesting. In the US the age of criminal responsibility starts between 6 and 13, depending on the state. This is driven by the physiological fact of our brain's ability to determine and act conscientiously. The legal age of majority is a society driven number based on economic feasibility of self-sustainment and then made concrete by governmental policy like voting and draft registration. This age was much lower when agriculture was the norm because 13 y/o's were working and hunting and essentially able to live on their own as was common. Developmentally, a parent's influence lasts for the remainder of their lifetime. So, really, a parent should always be criminally responsible for their offspring's actions, no matter what age they are. Unless, something magical happens at age 18 that somehow sever's all ties between parent and child.

The age of majority is the threshold of <broken link removed> as it is conceptualized (and recognized or declared) in law. It is the chronological moment when <broken link removed> cease to legally be considered children and assume control over their persons, actions, and decisions, thereby terminating the legal control and legal responsibilities of their parents or guardian over and for them. Most countries set majority at 18. The word majority here refers to having greater years and being of full age; it is opposed to minority, the state of being a minor. The law in a given jurisdiction may never actually use the term "age of majority" and the term thereby refers to a collection of laws bestowing the status of adulthood. The age of majority is a legally fixed age, concept, or statutory principle, which may differ depending on the jurisdiction, and may not necessarily correspond to actual mental or <broken link removed> of an individual.
Age of majority should not be confused with the <broken link removed> , <broken link removed> , <broken link removed> , <broken link removed> , <broken link removed> , <broken link removed> , <broken link removed> , etc., which all may sometimes be independent of, and set at a different age from, the age of majority.
Although a person may attain the age of majority in a particular jurisdiction, he or she may still be subject to age-based restrictions regarding matters such as the right to vote or stand for elective office, act as a judge, and many others.

 

[Koda]

JRuby, im not necessarily disagreeing with you that parents should take responsibility. I just think that there are too many laws already that are attempting to control guns. Everytime we give them another law, its a step towards the next law. And so on.

 

[JRuby]

JRuby, im not necessarily disagreeing with you that parents should take responsibility. I just think that there are too many laws already that are attempting to control guns. Everytime we give them another law, its a step towards the next law. And so on.

I agree - there are too many laws now - I dont want to see any more laws. I also see an awful lot of broken people out there and many of them are young because the parents werent there when the kids were being raised. This lack of parenting to me is a cause of alot of these problems. Parents now days want to be there son or daughters best freind - that is not what the kids need to learn IMHO, they need a strong figure that rewards when they do good and uses punishment when they dont. If we can raise the younger generation with a little respect and desire to do what is right maybe we can get past this mindset where a deadly weapon is thier first solution. How do you make parents responsible for thier sons or daughters if there is no repreccussion for such horendous acts like this. Maybe the answer is you cant and if so this county of ours is going to destroy itself even faster. Our future is the next generation but so far they are not impressing me much.

 

[Greywhisker]

The lack of ownership and the excuses...

I agree with you that this is the problem in our society. However, I don't add any degrees of separation. I teach my kids that they are responsible for their actions. And like every kid, they start out with, "But he(she/it/they)..." and I cut them off right there and tell them, "No. He/she/it/they did not force you to act. You chose to act all on your own."

Today, however, everybody (media, this group, that group, politicians) is blaming someone else, shifting responsibility to someone else, or forcing shared responsibility to people other than the ONE person that concretely and irreparably acted. I bold that part because all of a parent's action cannot be qualified as a concrete cause of action.

The problem is society doesn't hold individuals accountable for their actions. "I didn't know any better, my parents sucked." Well, then the parents can make the same statement about their own parent's. And since we all know that age 18 is a completely random number that has nothing to do with human development it cannot be used as an indiscriminate measure of responsibility, the claim is equally valid as the first kids' claim... that is to say, not valid at all.

If my kid steals my gun and shoots someone with it. There is only one person responsible. My kid. It doesn't matter is the gun secure or not. It was stolen. If I'm a good parent I'm going to be devastated and bear the guilt of it forever, because good parents always question "was I good enough?" Criminally inclined parents likely wont care and will end up in prison for some reason or another because they are criminally inclined. And the third group of parents would be considered "bad" not because of deliberate negligence but simply because they are human and didn't know any better or weren't clairvoyant enough. These parents too are likely to be devastated, and emotionally impacted for the rest of their lives. None of these things make them responsible for the actions of a free-thinking sentient being.

And while, I appreciate the ironclad musings of wikipedia as a basis for an argument, I will use the DOJ which is very clear in the distinction between the age of majority and the age of criminal responsibility, in that in Oregon the age of criminal responsibility is 12 and Washington's is 8. Because the brain develops differently for different people (the reason the age varies from 6 to 13) the defendant can always make a case that as an 8 year old they didn't understand the ramifications of stealing dad's 10/22 and shooting up their playground. And then it will be determined if it's a juvy case or criminal case as a result.

Now, and here is the real meat and potatoes of it, if it is deemed a juvy case... and that if the 8 yo kid didn't know the ramifications of stealing dad's 10/22 and shooting up the playground, then yes, parent's should be criminally responsible if proper safety measures were not taken with the firearm. But if the kid faces criminal charges, or would, if he survived the incident, then that's that. Only ONE person is responsible for someone's illegal behavior. And 99.99% of time it should be the person who committed the crime.

 

[Chee-to]

[QUOTE=" When I was a kid you spoke when spoken too, you treated adults with repsect - you in general had manners - today these kids are not only disrespectful but find the solution to be shooting someone or someones - who is responsible - to me it is the parents as well as the kids that comitt these crimes.

BY the way we could be talking about anything that could be used as weapon in this case we are talking about the shooting at Reynolds Highschool - kinda.[/QUOTE]

Hey, same here when I was a kid....So, what's changed , the parents, the kids, or this friggin' PC society we have forced down our throats, a parent can't spank their kid, the only discipline in school is expulsion, moms only raising kids, giving rubbers to kids in junior high, "Christian" type morals have been legislated out of the class room, we're not "Americans" anymore we have been separated in groups of people that "want theirs" if you don't want to work that's OK, the Gov will take care of you. Blaming the breakdown of society on a tool (gun). There's no personal responsibility being taught on so many levels. You can only teach what you've been taught...........Look at the headlines on all the law breaking , lying , "F" you, I'll do what ever I want to do, screw the Constitution POTUS !! Now there's morals, ethics, and "responsibility" the kids can emulate , and don't think they won't.....

 

[Greywhisker]

Parents now days want to be there son or daughters best freind - that is not what the kids need to learn IMHO, they need a strong figure that rewards when they do good and uses punishment when they dont. If we can raise the younger generation with a little respect and desire to do what is right maybe we can get past this mindset where a deadly weapon is thier first solution. How do you make parents responsible for thier sons or daughters if there is no repreccussion for such horendous acts like this. Maybe the answer is you cant and if so this county of ours is going to destroy itself even faster. Our future is the next generation but so far they are not impressing me much.

Every parent can be a better parent just as every person can be a better person. That goes without saying. It seems to me you're putting the brunt of the emphasis on the parents. This is focusing on a symptom rather the disease. The parent's are just as much affected by their environment as their kids. And when the environment bombards you with "it's someone else's fault." That's what they become. Just like, "you don't have to work, here's a welfare check." "You don't need a job, here's an iPhone." "You don't need to work, here's free healthcare." You don't need to fret, someone else is there.

It's not about parent's better. It's about making society better. And you don't make society better by transferring responsibility from the one that acted intentionally to someone that didn't.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

"The parent's are just as much affected by their environment as their kids. And when the environment bombards you with "it's someone else's fault." That's what they become."

So true!

 

[Greywhisker]

Hey, same here when I was a kid....So, what's changed , the parents, the kids, or this friggin' PC society we have forced down our throats, a parent can't spank their kid, the only discipline in school is expulsion, moms only raising kids, giving rubbers to kids in junior high, "Christian" type morals have been legislated out of the class room, we're not "Americans" anymore we have been separated in groups of people that "want theirs" if you don't want to work that's OK, the Gov will take care of you. Blaming the breakdown of society on a tool (gun). There's no personal responsibility being taught on so many levels. You can only teach what you've been taught...........Look at the headlines on all the law breaking , lying , "F" you, I'll do what ever I want to do, screw the Constitution POTUS !! Now there's morals, ethics, and "responsibility" the kids can emulate , and don't think they won't.....

See, the disease. Bad parenting is the symptom of this. Why do we want to punish the large number of good parents that might have something bad happen? Why not focus on the real problems instead?

 

[JRuby]

Once again we have parents saying its not my responsibility - its some one elses - to me this is the problem- IMHO the parent is ultimately and should be ultimately be held repsonsible for thier own children. Grey Whiskler and Chee to - you guys are making excuses why it isnt your fault. To me that is BS. You guys made the choice to bring them into the world, take repsonsibility of them til they are of legal age. In the most simplistic terms - "I want children but I dont want to take responsibility for them" We will simply have to disagree as to how children should be raised - I dont have any of my own so in some regards I will follow your lead but when someone's little monster kills a family member or others you have to ask yourself what could have been done differently and ultimately you come up with the parent. The parent is the common denominator.

 

[Chee-to]

See, the disease. Bad parenting is the symptom of this. Why do we want to punish the large number of good parents that might have something bad happen? Why not focus on the real problems instead?

Problems ? We don't have any "stinkin' problems !!!!
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
Joseph Goebbels

They can't fix the Progressive society that's been legislated , so all this mayhem, unrest and violence is blamed on a inanimate object, the GUN....

 

[Greywhisker]

Once again we have parents saying its not my responsibility - its some one elses - to me this is the problem- IMHO the parent is ultimately and should be ultimately be held repsonsible for thier own children. Grey Whiskler and Chee to - you guys are making excuses why it isnt your fault.

Are you for real? It's not about me as parent saying it isn't my fault. It's about me as a citizen saying the CRIMINAL IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR CRIMES! I don't have to make excuses for myself because I'm not a criminal. And I sure as hell wont make an excuse if my kid chooses to become a criminal, but I will expect them to be held accountable for their crimes! When I was in high school in Chicago and got arrested because I forgot to take my swiss army knife (that I use at work) out of my pocket before going to school I didn't blame my single mom parent. I took the suspension and went to court and took responsibility for my illegal actions.

You are aware that people have brains, and we've evolved beyond being bound to instinct for our actions, yes? We can evaluate consequences and choose a course of action, yes? And we do these things as an single, individual being, yes.

You're the one saying "it's someone else's responsiblity." Not me. You're saying john's at fault for joe's crime. I'm saying joe's at fault for joe's crime. Parent/Child has NOTHING to do with it.

 

[Greywhisker]

They can't fix the Progressive society that's been legislated , so all this mayhem, unrest and violence is blamed on a inanimate object, the GUN....

Worse, it's being blamed on someone that didn't even pull the trigger. It's a great time to be a criminal in the United States!

 

[JRuby]

I am saying as a parent you are repsonsible for your childrens actions - are you for real - you are saying even though I brought him into the world what he does should have no impact on me. I am saying as his legal guradian you should be heald accountable for him and his actions as least in part till he leaves your house as an adult. You are saying I choose to not accept that responsiility. I do not know how to make it any plainer. If Joe is an adult I agree with you. If Joe is underage I am saying that you are both guilty to some degree. Dont want the repsonsibility dont be a parent in the first palce.