Poll: Parent leaves gun unsecured, child uses it in a crime, should the parent be held responsible?

[Chee-to]

Once again we have parents saying its not my responsibility - its some one elses - to me this is the problem- IMHO the parent is ultimately and should be ultimately be held repsonsible for thier own children. Grey Whiskler and Chee to - you guys are making excuses why it isnt your fault. To me that is BS. You guys made the choice to bring them into the world, take repsonsibility of them til they are of legal age. In the most simplistic terms - "I want children but I dont want to take responsibility for them" We will simply have to disagree as to how children should be raised - I dont have any of my own so in some regards I will follow your lead but when someone's little monster kills a family member or others you have to ask yourself what could have been done differently and ultimately you come up with the parent. The parent is the common denominator.

I'm not saying the parent isn't responsible, I taught my kids what I was taught, two girls, three boys (lost one, bless his soul), all have good jobs, none have been in trouble with the law, all had good grades in school according to their ability, all had to earn the money for their first car, my youngest is studying for his masters in math, wants to teach and coach track...Not saying they were angels when they were kids , far from it, but they learned the consequences of breaking the rules, Like I said you can only teach what you been taught. Maybe they'd do better if they knew better..............

 

[Greywhisker]

You do understand the difference between criminal and civil, yes? The only person responsible for a crime is the person that commits it (not withstanding criminal negligence, which I mentioned in an earlier post). It's not that I choose not to accept it, it's that there is no criminal action that I've done to accept. And it's not just for me... I don't think any person should be criminally responsible for a crime they didn't commit. It's a little thing we used to call liberty. I know that's a foreign concept these days but I didn't expect to be so foreign on a firearms forum, lol.

Get off the whole parent thing, parent has nothing to do with it. It's all individual accountability.

 

[JRuby]

Chee to - that is impressive track record -my dad feels the same way. I was way more scared of what my dad would do to me if I had done something wrong. My dad always said to the school principle about me - "if you beat him you had better have a good reason and when he got home he would finish it off" and a few times he did. I learned quickly through self preservation that doing wrong just did not pay off.

P.S> condolences on the one - I cannot imagine that.

 

[JRuby]

You do understand the difference between criminal and civil, yes? The only person responsible for a crime is the person that commits it (not withstanding criminal negligence, which I mentioned in an earlier post). It's not that I choose not to accept it, it's that there is no criminal action that I've done to accept. And it's not just for me... I don't think any person should be criminally responsible for a crime they didn't commit. It's a little thing we used to call liberty. I know that's a foreign concept these days but I didn't expect to be so foreign on a firearms forum, lol.

Get off the whole parent thing, parent has nothing to do with it. It's all individual accountability.

I disagree as stated in previous posts. To say anything else would simple rehash what I have already stated and feel strongly about.

 

[Greywhisker]

I learned quickly through self preservation that doing wrong just did not pay off.

Now I get it... We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Chee-to]

Chee to - that is impressive track record -my dad feels the same way. I was way more scared of what my dad would do to me if I had done something wrong. My dad always said to the school principle about me - "if you beat him you had better have a good reason and when he got home he would finish it off" and a few times he did. I learned quickly through self preservation that doing wrong just did not pay off.

P.S> condolences on the one - I cannot imagine that.

Ya, I still cry at times and it happened a long time ago...

This is the point I'm trying to make. What if something happened and you snapped as a kid, with all your dad's teachings, and did something horrible, should your dad be held "criminally" responsible ??
I know.....

 

[JRuby]

Chee to - I am going to have to think on that one a little. As an adult I would say yes - as a kid I would say I never thought of it. Back thenm I had to answer to my dad first. The law was at best secondary. Back then killing someone was never an answer unless you felt threatened. You never heard of school shootings back then, I think egging was one of the worst things we did.

 

[Chee-to]

Chee to - I am going to have to think on that one a little. As an adult I would say yes - as a kid I would say I never thought of it. Back thenm I had to answer to my dad first. The law was at best secondary. Back then killing someone was never an answer unless you felt threatened. You never heard of school shootings back then, I think egging was one of the worst things we did.

Ya I know, times have changed, people have changed, this country has changed...

 

[DireWolf]

So more gun control laws affecting lawful gun owners? Did you miss the part about the Reynolds shooter defeating the security?

That gun owner (his parents) would not be at fault in that case.

"You" leave a locked and loaded unsecured firearm our so children can access it - you might be "lawful" in that you can legally own that firearm, but you are not responsible in the slightest. Lock it or wear it - I hear people talking about taking responsibility for their actions, but no body wants to apply that principle to gun ownership or security. It's not a fishing rod or a baseball glove.

 

[Greywhisker]

Back then killing someone was never an answer unless you felt threatened. You never heard of school shootings back then, I think egging was one of the worst things we did.

Ya I know, times have changed, people have changed, this country has changed...

This isn't exactly true... I'm not sure how how old you are but lets say you're a child of the 60's. The murder rate in the 60's was on par, even slightly higher than it is today. Overall violent crime was lower in the 60's but murder wasn't. And there were plenty of school shootings then as well. This stats come from the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting data.

The only thing that's changed is the how the media sensationalizes it and how society holds people accountable.

 

[Koda]

That gun owner (his parents) would not be at fault in that case.

"You" leave a locked and loaded unsecured firearm our so children can access it - you might be "lawful" in that you can legally own that firearm, but you are not responsible in the slightest. Lock it or wear it - I hear people talking about taking responsibility for their actions, but no body wants to apply that principle to gun ownership or security. It's not a fishing rod or a baseball glove.

100% agree

 

[Koda]

Ya I know, times have changed, people have changed, this country has changed...

Times have changed but im not so certain people have changed, in just the last 100 years US population has tripled.

There has always been the bad apples, now there is 3x more of it in the same amount of space.

 

[RicInOR]

Sorry - we had a number of threads on Reynolds High School - And this just seemed like the best place.

Update - The rifle was not necessary secured in the family home. It was kept in the shooters bedroom, therefore he had access to it. Belonged to a brother who is a reservist.
http://www.kptv.com/story/25823573/search-warrant-reynolds-hs-shooter-took-gun-from-his-brother

 

[JRuby]

I wish we could determine who in the first place said the gun was secured - people that make false statements like that should be held accountable.

 

[GrpCapMandrake]

Under the bed is a poor storage location for a firearm. At the very least get one of those Stack-On sheet metal cabinets to keep your stuff in.

Before anyone get's their dander up. I am not saying you cannot have a gun for self defense on your person or even in your nightstand (although I am not a big fan of that). What I am saying is that if you have a firearm you are not employing in some current legitimate lawful purpose (CC/OC, personal defense while at home, etc.), then lock the darn thing away.

Everyone has a responsibility to themselves, the shooting sports, and their fellow citizens to responsibly look after and lock up their firearms when not in use.

There is a thread in the preparedness section of this forum that asks "what have you done to prepare today?" I would extend this to all of us on a broader scale. What have you done today to ensure your guns do not become part of the problem? Creating a safety culture beyond the three or four basic rules (depending on which rules you adhere to) is what will help take further fuel from the anti-gun crowd and help preserve our rights as they stand.

Sorry for the rant but I had to get that off my chest.

Thanks

 

[deen_ad]

<- Why there aren't any school shootings in Israel!
Teacher with long gun slung over her shoulder!!!

Sure, just like a car owner is held responsible when a criminal steals a car and kills someone with it.

Deen
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"A gun is like a parachute. If you need one and don't have it, you'll probably never need one again!"

 

[Riot]

Sure, just like a car owner is held responsible when a criminal steals a car and kills someone with it.

Comparing one of my children to a career criminal is another false anology...I am not responsible for the actions of a criminal. I am, however, responsible for the actions of my child.

It's not the school's responsibility.
It's not the government's responsibility.
It's not the policeman's responsibility.

It's MY responsibility.

If my kid shot your kid with my gun would you really want to take my kid to court for murder or me for my negligence?

My oldest son is two, by the way, in case any of you were wondering...the key, again, goes back to age and how much a parent has actually tried to secure and educate their child. If your 14 y/o starts cheeking his psych meds and brakes into your safe that's a completely different matter than if I leave a Glock 22 within reach of my toddler. Each case is different and the parents and the gun owners, themselves, should be held to a standard of policing themselves- because the last thing we want is some dumb law saying "unless the gun is on your person you must keep it unloaded and locked in a safe seperate from the ammunition" because of some freeking idiot gun owner leaving his Tec-9 out for his 7 year old to take to school and shoot up a playground.

 

[Greywhisker]

Comparing one of my children to a career criminal is another false anology...I am not responsible for the actions of a criminal. I am, however, responsible for the actions of my child.

If my kid shot your kid with my gun would you really want to take my kid to court for murder or me for my negligence?

Isn't this a contradiction? Your not responsible for the actions of a criminal but you are responsible for the actions of your criminal son? His relationship to you has NO bearing on his criminal actions or HIS responsibility thereof; nor are you criminally responsible unless you left your firearm unsecured with the intention of him using it for a crime.

If my kid was shot by another kid and the shooter was deemed developed enough to understand right/wrong/consequence then the STATE would take him to court for murder, not me. And God forbid I should ever be in that situation but I doubt I would file a civil suit against the parents. Why would I? So I can ruin your life through financial hardships? Because that will give me back my kid? If you're a parent that believes you did everything right in raising your kid then your life is already severely screwed up as a result of your kids actions and if your a scumbag parent then there is nothing I can do that will make you feel my pain. It will make a whole lot of people that don't give a flying a f*ck about my pain some money though. Yay.

But all these situational arguments, and "what ifs" have only thing in common... ONE person choose to commit murder. One person. Why are nearly half of the respondents blaming the person that not only DID NOT commit murder but was a victim of a crime, albeit a lesser one, themselves? It's absolutely astonishing. No wonder all of our rights are disappearing.