Oregon gubernatorial election, Second Amendment?

[Visceral]

obamacare cannot be paid for via normal means, so the government will simply print money to fund it. That will cause inflation.

"Obamacare" doesnt need to be "paid for". It actually saves money.

From the independent Congressional Budget Office, "CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimate that enacting both pieces of legislation will produce a net reduction in federal deficits of $143 billion over the 2010-2019 period. "

I understand if you don't like the fact that the Health Care Reform Bill creates a mandate for individuals to buy health insurance, and I understand if you don't like that the US government is going to force the health insurers to pay for people after they get sick. But I don't understand where you think the US Government is going to have to pay significant amounts to enact the legislation. Let me guess... you don't trust the government to tell you what they are paying for it.

 

[dmancornell]

So your only contention (other than posting data you don't understand) is that because the government published a number it must be wrong, and a number you don't understand on the internet is more accurate? To be fair, you arent calling Snopes.com a "liberal thinktank" like Just Jim, but I think you've jumped the shark on this one.

In retrospect, calling the internet "data" more accurate is not the correct term. The correct term is that it is not tainted by statists.

And yes, anything the government says is suspect. To justify QE2, they will simply spout a lower inflation number so Bernanke can do his dirty work with someone to blame later on.

 

[Visceral]

Right, and look how that worked out. The US economy did not recover until after World War 2 when the economic restrictions were released.



According to the same hacks who publish the inflation data? Don't they count the money they created out of thin air as part of GDP?

Nope, the money supply has nothing to do with the calculation of the gross domestic product.

 

[Visceral]

In retrospect, calling the internet "data" more accurate is not the correct term. The correct term is that it is not tainted by statists.

And yes, anything the government says is suspect. To justify QE2, they will simply spout a lower inflation number so Bernanke can do his dirty work with someone to blame later on.

There's a big difference between "is suspect, I better learn more", and "I'd trust something I found on the internet that I don't understand before I'd trust the validated and audited numbers of the US government."

The government says your water is safe, the money you accept for your work is worth something, and your land and house belong to you. If you don't trust the government at all, its a short downward spiral to living in someone else's woods surviving off what you can hunt and gather.

 

[bnsaibum]

I wish I could vote for "None of the Above".

+1 This should be on every ballot nationwide.

 

[Visceral]

+1 This should be on every ballot nationwide.

Let's say 51% of people vote for "none of the above". What happens next?

 

[dmancornell]

"Obamacare" doesnt need to be "paid for". It actually saves money.

From the independent Congressional Budget Office, "CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimate that enacting both pieces of legislation will produce a net reduction in federal deficits of $143 billion over the 2010-2019 period. "

I understand if you don't like the fact that the Health Care Reform Bill creates a mandate for individuals to buy health insurance, and I understand if you don't like that the US government is going to force the health insurers to pay for people after they get sick. But I don't understand where you think the US Government is going to have to pay significant amounts to enact the legislation. Let me guess... you don't trust the government to tell you what they are paying for it.

When LBJ's cronies passed Medicare the government's 10 year cost estimates were off by a factor of 10. The CBO was created out of that mess. And since the CBO is about as independent as the federal reserve (i.e. it's not), I wonder why you and many others put so much faith in their numbers.

The much-publicized "fight" between the CBO and the WH OMB was a dog and pony show. There's no fight, they all agree to consolidate power within the federal government. The fight was just to fool people into thinking they actually care.

 

[dmancornell]

Nope, the money supply has nothing to do with the calculation of the gross domestic product.

And yet, the GDP grows while real unemployment is well above 10%, just like during the worst times when the GDP was at rock bottom. I wonder where all that new production is from?

 

[dmancornell]

The government says your water is safe, the money you accept for your work is worth something, and your land and house belong to you. If you don't trust the government at all, its a short downward spiral to living in someone else's woods surviving off what you can hunt and gather.

Nice digression, but the government has lost all credibility in monetary matters when they handed control of the US dollar to a cabal of central bankers in 1913. The government can only be trusted in matters where it has no moral hazard to contend with. In all other matters, their word is about as good as the naked guy with a signboard.

Unfortunately, the government has vested interests in so many matters today, they pretty much can't be trusted with anything.

 

[riverrat373]

It's more accurate simply because the data is not corrupted for political reasons. All government economic data is rigged to benefit the ruling class.

Paranoia!

 

[bnsaibum]

Didn't they have a write in space on your ballot, or is it just a Clackamas County thing?

Benton County has a space for write in votes, but that is completely different than 'none of the above'. A majority of votes for 'none of the above' would force a new vote with new candidates for the position.

 

[Visceral]

When LBJ's cronies passed Medicare the government's 10 year cost estimates were off by a factor of 10. The CBO was created out of that mess. And since the CBO is about as independent as the federal reserve (i.e. it's not), I wonder why you and many others put so much faith in their numbers.

The much-publicized "fight" between the CBO and the WH OMB was a dog and pony show. There's no fight, they all agree to consolidate power within the federal government. The fight was just to fool people into thinking they actually care.

Lets say I have no data to disagree... How does the Healthcare Reform Act cost the US government money... especially so much that they will have to create enough new money to trigger hyperinflation?

 

[Visceral]

Nice digression, but the government has lost all credibility in monetary matters when they handed control of the US dollar to a cabal of central bankers in 1913. The government can only be trusted in matters where it has no moral hazard to contend with. In all other matters, their word is about as good as the naked guy with a signboard.

Unfortunately, the government has vested interests in so many matters today, they pretty much can't be trusted with anything.

So why stay in the US? You can't believe that a vote changes anything... elections are handled by the state governments and must, by your logic, be completely corrupt. I can't see how you have any hope.

 

[Visceral]

And yet, the GDP grows while real unemployment is well above 10%, just like during the worst times when the GDP was at rock bottom. I wonder where all that new production is from?

Two reasons.
- The American consumer spends money whether he has it or not. This drives business. It may be unsustainable in the long run, but its still continuing at a sickening rate. The American consumer is scarier to me than Human Centipede 2.
- Business can be driven by the same spending (or even slightly less) and make more profit because of significantly increased productivity. Modern just-in-time supply chains are rapidly replacing old school "build it and they will buy". Significantly lower inventories creates inventory turns. Inventory turns means cash flow. Cash flow means revenue (and gross product, as in GDP), and revenue means profit.

 

[dmancornell]

Lets say I have no data to disagree... How does the Healthcare Reform Act cost the US government money... especially so much that they will have to create enough new money to trigger hyperinflation?

The bill is a trojan horse designed to eliminate private healthcare in the US by regulating it out of existence. Once that happens the government will step in to run healthcare. Given the government's track record of running anything, you can expect costs to skyrocket.

 

[dmancornell]

So why stay in the US? You can't believe that a vote changes anything... elections are handled by the state governments and must, by your logic, be completely corrupt. I can't see how you have any hope.

I'm not from the US. I emigrated from China, a country run by a government even more corrupt than the US. The US is the only country I see any hope of people taking power back from the government.

 

[Visceral]

The bill is a trojan horse designed to eliminate private healthcare in the US by regulating it out of existence. Once that happens the government will step in to run healthcare. Given the government's track record of running anything, you can expect costs to skyrocket.

Thats enough of a stretch that I'm going to have to say "huh." and agree that we disagree. Boehner or whatever his name is is already claiming that somehow they will crush the Healthcare Reform Act. I don't believe it, but if you think its all one big conspiracy to drive insurance companies off the map, that would take quite the chain of events.

 

[Visceral]

I'm not from the US. I emigrated from China, a country run by a government even more corrupt than the US. The US is the only country I see any hope of people taking power back from the government.

But you believe that all government numbers, including elections, and most legislation is a scheme to fool us and rob us of our freedom... so you see the US as the only country that a revolution has a reasonable chance of success?

But to be fair, I do agree about China. I used to have to pay a number of people extra "fees" to get things done. All the time. Only Nigeria was worse. Before FCPA, *of course*.

 

[dmancornell]

Two reasons.
- The American consumer spends money whether he has it or not. This drives business. It may be unsustainable in the long run, but its still continuing at a sickening rate. The American consumer is scarier to me than Human Centipede 2.
- Business can be driven by the same spending (or even slightly less) and make more profit because of significantly increased productivity. Modern just-in-time supply chains are rapidly replacing old school "build it and they will buy". Significantly lower inventories creates inventory turns. Inventory turns means cash flow. Cash flow means revenue (and gross product, as in GDP), and revenue means profit.

So you're telling me it's OK to do QE2 because the GDP is increasing, but it's only increasing because the US is borrowing our way out and the economy will inevitably collapse again in the future? Great.

That pretty much proves my argument against QE2, and also provides a neat incentive for the "independent" federal reserve to fire up the presses, which is to temporarily revive the corpse of the economy long enough to get Obama re-elected in 2012.

 

[dmancornell]

But you believe that all government numbers, including elections, and most legislation is a scheme to fool us and rob us of our freedom... so you see the US as the only country that a revolution has a reasonable chance of success?

2nd amendment FTW. That and American society is imbued with a sense of rebellion I've never seen anywhere else. You will never see a Tea Party movement outside the US.