open carry at the St. Helens town hall

Monkeyman · Aug 15, 2009

So I heard from friends who were there that several constituents were OC at the Wu townhall in St. Helens yesterday.

Interesting to me, since another post mentioned folks carrying at an Obama event. Since OC is legal in Oregon, I wonder how event planners would react.

Some attendees said the bussed-in pro-Obamacare folks were not quite, well, residents of the district. Not legal voters, anyway.

No coverage in the Online Fishwrap. I wonder why.

Anyone there?

NK777 · Aug 15, 2009

Good, it needs to happen a lot more.

But you do know they are trucking in Obama Health care haters as well right? Both sides are playing really stupid games... Kind of like the political system is broken.

The B · Aug 15, 2009

hmm.. i was in saint helens, but didn't know anything about a town hall. i would have pulled my vest off (exposing my glock 17) and headed over

Monkeyman · Aug 16, 2009

NK777 said:
Good, it needs to happen a lot more.

But you do know they are trucking in Obama Health care haters as well right? Both sides are playing really stupid games... Kind of like the political system is broken.

I didn't know that. Having attended several of these meetings,including the early tea parties, the only "haters" I have seen are concerned citizens who are finally getting off the couch and making some noise about how our "leaders" are messing up.

Who's your source? Who's doing the trucking? Where have you seen them?

NK777 · Aug 16, 2009

Monkeyman said:
I didn't know that. Having attended several of these meetings,including the early tea parties, the only "haters" I have seen are concerned citizens who are finally getting off the couch and making some noise about how our "leaders" are messing up.

Who's your source? Who's doing the trucking? Where have you seen them?

There are fake grass roots organizations that are providing the Red Koolaide, riling the extreme right, trucking them around to town hall meetings to make a ruckus just like the Blue Koolaide drinkers organizations. These organizations are owned and operated by the extreme rich elitists.

Look I am a conservative but I do not drink the Red or the Blue Koolaide because they are both poison and I prefer to think for myself. As for proof... I'm not going to trouble myself with proof, you can look this stuff up yourself. I will not attempt to take the Koolaide away from anybody. If you like drinking it why should I even attempt to stop you from drinking it. If I provided proof you would likely reject it anyways... That's the power of the Koolaide.

Democrats are not Liberal
Republicans are not Conservative

Both appear to me to be Fascist. They are not truly the ones in power. They are in fact bought a paid for by the extreme rich. Yes I do believe that is how corrupt our government has become. It no longer has anything to do with what we the people want. It now is only about money and control.

SheepDog223 · Aug 16, 2009

All I know is it's not the federal gov's job to infringe on gun rights nor is it written anywhere in the constitution that they shall provide me with health coverage. The federal gov is to only provide defence from other countries and maybe regulate interstate commerce and maybe a few other things. Oh yeah, and to pay us for our used cars...:huh: Please excuse me while I go hide in my hole and let the gov do whatever they want.

Monkeyman · Aug 16, 2009

NK777 said:
As for proof... I'm not going to trouble myself with proof.

I understand now. Who's drinking the koolaid, then?

nilknarf · Aug 17, 2009

Not trying to piss anyone here off, but does it seem to anyone else that maybe the bozos in DC are starting to get the message about the general public's views on the Big O's Health Care Reform scheme without us bringing needless negative press upon ourselves with OC at an already contentious Town Hall landscape? Why add fuel to the flames of the anti-gun rights crowd?

I want to be sure that when I need to OC, I can without being pursued by the bozos.

Monkeyman · Aug 17, 2009

nilknarf said:
Not trying to piss anyone here off, but does it seem to anyone else that maybe the bozos in DC are starting to get the message about the general public's views on the Big O's Health Care Reform scheme without us bringing needless negative press upon ourselves with OC at an already contentious Town Hall landscape? Why add fuel to the flames of the anti-gun rights crowd?

I want to be sure that when I need to OC, I can without being pursued by the bozos.

Excellent point.

On the other hand, regardless of the perceived stigma of OC (and all 2A rights, for that matter) by the media and "bed-wetters", as Dick Armey refers to nanny-staters, OC is legal in Oregon. The anti-2A crowd needs to learn that they can't pick and choose the parts of the Constitution, or state law, that they wish to enforce.

Perhaps enough people are fed up with the garbage coming from Washington that they don't care what the media and do-gooders think anymore. Showing up at a townhall where elected officials will be lying to the people may be sending a not-so-subtle message to these people who think they are so much smarter than the average citizen.

nilknarf · Aug 17, 2009

Ah, I think you touched on a critical point Monkeyman- there's probably nothing we can do about the bozos thinking they're smarter than the average citizen, but if we can expose the contempt these bozos seem to have for us to other voters by using reason and by knowing the facts ourselves, perhaps we can use their own actions against them without putting ourselves at risk. Expose their questionable tactics rather than being goaded into questionable tactics ourselves. Sun Tzu has some pretty good advice- we should all make ourselves very familiar with it and apply it to legal, and common-sense methods- we'll stand a lot better chance of keeping our rights if we do.

NK777 · Aug 18, 2009

Monkeyman said:
I understand now. Who's drinking the koolaid, then?

Many drink from the fountains. It is but one tactic the bozo's in DC use to keep us fighting amongst ourselves and distracted allowing them to do what they want to do while we aren't paying attention. What we have here in this country is the illusion of democracy and freedom. It isn't even a representative Republic anymore. They don't care about you and me buddy and they certainly aren't representing us. Rather then try to do what we want done they do what they can get away with doing.

If you aren't willing to seek out the truth, you will not find it even if I posted undeniable proof right in this thread. You will in fact simply reject it because it doesn't align with your personal belief system. What we do need more of in this country is truth seekers. People that are willing to objectively look for the truth and put there petty differences aside and meet in the middle. Right wing Left wing is not where the truth lies. It in fact lies in the middle and if we were to come together in the middle we would see real change that all the people can agree on. Guess what the bozo's don't want this to happen because together we win and they lose. The power of the government would shift from the Government officials to the people and they certainly don't want that to happen.

nick1980 · Aug 18, 2009

SheepDog223 said:
All I know is it's not the federal gov's job to infringe on gun rights nor is it written anywhere in the constitution that they shall provide me with health coverage. The federal gov is to only provide defence from other countries and maybe regulate interstate commerce and maybe a few other things. Oh yeah, and to pay us for our used cars...:huh: Please excuse me while I go hide in my hole and let the gov do whatever they want.

It also doesn't say in the constitution that they need to provide public schooling, police, fire dep., library's, soc. sec. medicare, unemployment, welfare and all the other things we have socialized. I have to admit I think universal health care should be a right in the US. For those who say they don't want government telling then who they can and can't see need to realize that your insurance company is doing the same thing. I have health insurance and I can't go see who I want. I have to go to someone who takes my plan. People who need care get it anyway in the ER and that cost us much more in the long run. Have you ever tried to go to the ER? it is crazy because people wait until they are really sick and then go with no insurance but they still have to see them, and who do you think pays that bill??? I'm no crazy left winger trust me but this is one thing that I'm all for. People need to read the facts and get things straight. :s0155:

gunnails · Aug 18, 2009

nick1980 said:
It also doesn't say in the constitution that they need to provide public schooling, police, fire dep., library's, soc. sec. medicare, unemployment, welfare and all the other things we have socialized. I have to admit I think universal health care should be a right in the US. For those who say they don't want government telling then who they can and can't see need to realize that your insurance company is doing the same thing. I have health insurance and I can't go see who I want. I have to go to someone who takes my plan. People who need care get it anyway in the ER and that cost us much more in the long run. Have you ever tried to go to the ER? it is crazy because people wait until they are really sick and then go with no insurance but they still have to see them, and who do you think pays that bill??? I'm no crazy left winger trust me but this is one thing that I'm all for. People need to read the facts and get things straight.

======================================================

health insurance companies are heavily regulated by the Govt. The same Govt. that you think can do better.

If Govt. were to nullify all the mandates on health insurance companies, health insurance would become much more affordable.

The Govt. doesn't do any thing well, why should we expect them to do well in control of health care?

JMHO

The trick to getting seen quickly at the emergency room is to bleed all over the floor, they don't like that.

nilknarf · Aug 18, 2009

I think the same argument goes for the govt regulations on the banking and mortgage industries as well... and look how well things turned out on that front.

We may be drifting a bit off-topic though... I think the issue that Monkeyman was originally pointing out was OC at town halll meetings (rather than the merits or detriments of the health care thing)... the sheep and the bozos would be a lot more open to listening to our views if they didn't feel like we were trying to intimidate them with a show of armed force, and it would be a lot easier to gain allies among the voting soccer moms if we show restraint in exercising our OC rights- I have no problem with OC when the conversation turns to OC issues, but the guys who are openly carrying at health-care overhaul events the big-O is attending aren't really helping our cause...

Monkeyman · Aug 18, 2009

NK777 said:
They don't care about you and me buddy and they certainly aren't representing us. Rather then try to do what we want done they do what they can get away with doing.

I agree with you. But, you made a claim out of the clear blue that right wing groups organized by "the rich" were busing in groups to the town halls. I have been to several town halls, and actually have volunteered with groups that are not financed by anyone. All volunteer. I asked you to prove your claims and you said you didn't need proof.

NK777 said:
If you aren't willing to seek out the truth, you will not find it even if I posted undeniable proof right in this thread. You will in fact simply reject it because it doesn't align with your personal belief system.

Then you accused me of basically being an idiot. Where do you get off making these statements? You don't know me, you don't know what I think, and when you spout off garbage like this, you are no better than the jerks in Washington who think they're so much smarter than anyone. It's intellectual laziness.

You won't post proof of your claims because you don't have any

I believe that people who attend these tea parties and town halls, OC or not, are sick of being treated like idiots by the people in government. I know I am. And I have taken the time to speak with lots of folks who show up, and most of them think like I do. Most of these people have never gotten involved in politics beyond voting. So I feel like I know what's going on here. You insinuate that I am close-minded because I ask for some evidence of outrageous claims you make? Claims that my eyeballs tell me are false? Are you this disrespectful of everyone's opinion?

NK777 said:
What we do need more of in this country is truth seekers. People that are willing to objectively look for the truth and put there petty differences aside and meet in the middle.

Let me guess; people like you, right, who don't need to bother with proof?

Jamie6.5 · Aug 18, 2009

Do you really believe your gun rights are safe in the middle?
That our liberties and successes depend on political adherence?
That allowing the middle to dictate political and societal policy is the path to freedom?

I beg to differ!

Beware the (political) middle for it leads to mediocrity. By definition it IS mediocrity.

The true conservatives in this county believe that we can build and maintain a society that thrives within the boundaries our forefathers put to paper when our cherished documents were written. Those documents being:
The Declaration of Independence,
The Constitution
The Bill of Rights.
Properly executed, our society has proven time and again to be the greatest in the modern world, with the world's greatest accomplishments to it's credit.

The left believes that due to societal changes, that those documents should be changed to fit an altered perception of freedom, or that it's okay to "interpret" the meaning therein. In doing so, they have proven over the last 100 years or so that they are not responsible enough to safeguard the truths and freedoms within the ideals framed in these documents.
They have twisted them and diluted them for political gain and social acceptance (read: elect-ability).
They have twisted them and diluted them for financial gain and abused the power they bought with it.

Don't stand by your country right or wrong.
Don't stand by your political affiliations right or wrong.
Stand only for the documents that gave birth to our great country, and demand the same of the people that represent you.

Look closely at history and you will see the wrong that comes from straying from the path laid down in these documents. Then demand of your President, Senators and Representatives that they stay on that path.
Take a copy of the Constitution with you to your next political rally and ask your representative if (s)he can recite a single paragraph of it!
I'll bet they can't. If they can, ask how their agenda fits within that framework.

Your freedoms lie in the Constitution and all it represents. It has nothing to do with individuals or political parties. It is not open to interpretation, as some would have you believe. Our forefathers weren't lawyers or even political wordsmiths. The were farmers, entrepreneurs, inventors and tradesmen. They wrote what they meant and they meant what they wrote.
Take it all at face value and you will know your path.
It leads not to mediocrity but to greatness, for it subverts no one and celebrates individualism through life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

But above all remember that there was no compromise offered King George, because to do so would have led to mediocrity.
Our forefathers knew it then, and we would be wise to know it now and remember it forever.

J. Bergen, daughter of and sister to veterans of foreign wars, and patriotic gun owners.

Your gun rights are not safe in the middle. None of your inalienable rights are!

Monkeyman · Aug 18, 2009

nilknarf said:
I think the same argument goes for the govt regulations on the banking and mortgage industries as well... and look how well things turned out on that front.

We may be drifting a bit off-topic though... I think the issue that Monkeyman was originally pointing out was OC at town halll meetings (rather than the merits or detriments of the health care thing)... the sheep and the bozos would be a lot more open to listening to our views if they didn't feel like we were trying to intimidate them with a show of armed force, and it would be a lot easier to gain allies among the voting soccer moms if we show restraint in exercising our OC rights- I have no problem with OC when the conversation turns to OC issues, but the guys who are openly carrying at health-care overhaul events the big-O is attending aren't really helping our cause...

I don't think the bozos will ever be open to listening to our side of things. There's no point in trying to find common ground with them. On the Second Amendment issue especially, we have become used to appeasement. Where has that gotten us?

I truly believe we have an opportunity here, with what's going on in Washington and Salem, to change the tide of big government and get back to a small-government way of life, where individuals take more responsibility for themselves. Regular Joes who don't usually get involved are getting off the couch and making some noise. And from my experiences, the shouting and booing only starts after the politician (Wu, Read, Wyden, any of them) stands up there and pukes up some cliches and avoids the hard questions. The old "Silent Majority" Nixon referred to in the Seventies has never really gone away; in fact, it's one of the fundamental truths of our political society. That Silent Majority is becoming less Silent, and I really believe it's grass-roots and real, regardless of what political experts like NK777 have to say about it.

The people who OC at these events are simply reminding folks that we do have rights, those rights are inalienable, meaning they can't be revoked by a government out of control, and enough is enough. The Secret Service knows it;

And yes, Sun-Tzu was right :s0155:

nilknarf · Aug 18, 2009

I agree- the bozos only hear what they want to hear. Seeing our "Silent Majority" speak up and change the course of the bozos when they get too far out of line (this health-care reform stuff, the amnesty for illegal aliens stuff, etc) always makes me smile!

Our founding fathers declared that the second amendment is an inalienable right, and I'm right there with them (and with you), but that won't keep the bozos from doing whatever they can to erode and nullify those rights if they think they can in order to keep/expand their power/position. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. If the bozos can convince enough sheep that guns really are evil, we're all in trouble. If the bozos make a gun grab too soon and too vehemently, then they'll be the ones on the hot seat.

Maybe I should modify my position to urge our numbers to somehow keep the OC display more obviously relevant to those sheep who are not clever enough to make the connection? I doubt that the media will lend us any substantial support in communicating that connection...

I'm happy to step aside now- I'm starting to sound too preachy even to myself!

Keep up the good fight, but against the bozos, not against ourselves.

NK777 · Aug 19, 2009

Monkeyman said:
I agree with you. But, you made a claim out of the clear blue that right wing groups organized by "the rich" were busing in groups to the town halls. I have been to several town halls, and actually have volunteered with groups that are not financed by anyone. All volunteer. I asked you to prove your claims and you said you didn't need proof.

Then you accused me of basically being an idiot. Where do you get off making these statements? You don't know me, you don't know what I think, and when you spout off garbage like this, you are no better than the jerks in Washington who think they're so much smarter than anyone. It's intellectual laziness.

You won't post proof of your claims because you don't have any

I believe that people who attend these tea parties and town halls, OC or not, are sick of being treated like idiots by the people in government. I know I am. And I have taken the time to speak with lots of folks who show up, and most of them think like I do. Most of these people have never gotten involved in politics beyond voting. So I feel like I know what's going on here. You insinuate that I am close-minded because I ask for some evidence of outrageous claims you make? Claims that my eyeballs tell me are false? Are you this disrespectful of everyone's opinion?

Let me guess; people like you, right, who don't need to bother with proof?

I did not mean any insult. It just has been my experience that people on one side of the coin tend to reject the possibility that both sides of the coin are dirty. I'm sorry for assuming that you were one sided. Truth is I don't have the time or energy to look it up for you at this time. If I find the time I will post you some interesting reading. As far as the 2nd amendment and open carrying goes I personally am in full support of it. It is my belief that with out it we cease to be citizens in the eye's of the government and begin to be looked at as subjects instead if we lose the right to keep and bear arms. I am in fact for socialized medicine but I do not agree with Obama's plan. I believe it will be more expensive and less effective then the private health care system. In addition at this time I do not trust my health care with the government.