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NSFW *Graphic* Dr's View of a Gunshot Wound Rifle vs Handgun

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by Akathepriest, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. Akathepriest

    Akathepriest Astoria, OR Active Member

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    Found this on youtube today. Not sure if its been shared, but definitely lots of info in here.

    [video=youtube;tku8YI68-JA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA&feature=g-vrec[/video]
     
  2. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    Have not watched it yet but basically you don't want to be shot by a pistol and you REALLY do not be shot by a high velocity rifle
     
  3. MrNiceGuy

    MrNiceGuy between springfield and shelbyville Well-Known Member

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    Might want to mention the HIGHLY graphic images or throw up a NSFW tag.
    When you said "doctors view" I thought you meant a doctors perspective... not a bunch of photos of corpses and actual gunshot victims.

    I'm not going to get in trouble for watching it and I have no kids around, but people thinking this is going to be mostly a doctors lecture might be caught off guard by what's shown in that video.
     
  4. Blue Devil PA

    Blue Devil PA Boise Active Member

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    Great lecture!
     
  5. Akathepriest

    Akathepriest Astoria, OR Active Member

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    Sorry, I didn't even think about it when I shared it.
     
  6. MrNiceGuy

    MrNiceGuy between springfield and shelbyville Well-Known Member

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    No harm, no foul.
    Glad you shared it!
    Thank you.
     
    chemist and (deleted member) like this.
  7. boxer13

    boxer13 PNW Active Member

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    Absolutely fascinating video and very informative. Thanks for posting. Another nail in the coffin of 9mm v. .40 v. .45 debate.

    Stopping power is like real estate; location, location, location.
     
  8. Mohawk13

    Mohawk13 Home on The Range Active Member

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    Great Lecture. Treated alot of GSW's in the Service. Looks worse in person...
     
  9. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

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    Excellent resource - thank you! The gore is pretty standard for anybody familiar with ER medicine, and not really shocking.

    What I like best is that this doc knows his weapons, not just his patients. Most of his words are carefully chosen and precise, but....
    There's always a "but." Some of us are born to quibble.

    What I care about in a SD weapon is not lethality, but rapid incapacitation. They are not the same thing, and a doc who is never at the scene of a shooting does not know and cannot know if the target was still in the fight after getting shot. There are plenty of examples (FerFAL's story comes to mind) of somebody taking a hit to a bone and going down screaming. There's no artery or organ damage and therefore no immediate risk of death, but he's done. One of the features of hollowpoints is their tendency to cut into bone rather than skipping off, and that structural damage often causes so much shock trauma that it ends the fight instantly.

    Conversely, we all know about stories of people shot with a .22 who can still call 911 before they lay down and die. This doc is intent on saving the life of the shooting victim, and so is really only focused on how long he takes to bleed out, not how long he was still up and functioning. That video of the guy taking two 9mm slugs and walking away is only one end of a spectrum of target responses seen in the real world. Like docs are fond of saying, "All bleeding stops - eventually."


    There's also a bit of a technical problem:
    He talks about energy, but never uses the word momentum. At the 14-minute mark he switches right from giving us kinetic-energy data to a slide saying that the "impact" of a 9mm slug is like a 10# weight dropped from 0.72 inches. Hold on there, Doc!

    A 147gr slug moving at 960 fps carries 300 ft-lbs of ENERGY, equivalent to the ENERGY delivered by a 10# weight falling 30 feet. (lbf here, force)
    That same slug carries 20 lb-fps of MOMENTUM [(147/7000)*960], equivalent to the MOMENTUM of a 10# weight that has fallen 0.75 inches. (lbm here, mass)
    Bullet Kinetic Energy Calculator

    So IMO his use of the word "impact" is confusing and unnecessary. Okay, we get it, the target doesn't fly through the air when shot. But if you really want to mimic the ENERGY carried by that slug, you'd have to drop a 10# weight three stories onto a .355" diameter spike balanced on the target. Ouch! And neither is all that bullet energy always dissipated in the target - a point that escapes him even as he mentions the exit wound on the back of the robbery victim's shoulder. (Okay, maybe it's not an exit wound - maybe it's the entrance of the second round.) But he talks about looking for exit wounds without ever pointing out that all his energy calculations go out the window if you don't know how much the departing bullet took with it.

    Conclusion: Use a rifle if the goal is to kill. Use FMJ rounds in your pistol if the goal is to kill.
    But he brings no information about how to incapacitate a target as quickly as possible, and that's what a SD scenario is all about.
     
  10. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

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    boxer13, one subject that's never even mentioned in this excellent video is stopping power. Its one and only concern is the rate of exsanguination.
     
  11. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Portland Completely Out of Ammo

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    Watching that just re-enforces my 'safety' mindset about weapons. I do everything possible to never contribute to an innocent person getting shot (inc myself). That includes everything from constant safety checks, proper handling, basic rules - to owning a gun safe so my one gun (lol) won't get into the hands of a bad guy.

    It also reminds me of the extreme responsibility required in carrying a firearm and how never to take it lightly, never pull that gun for anything less than a life threatening situation. No innocent bystander will ever get shot by me because I took safety for granted.

    That 147g info is interesting since that is the grain of choice for 9mm subs via a suppressor. Nice to know it still delivers a good punch.
     
  12. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

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    Burt, how could you absorb that trivia about a 147gr slug and yet be so oblivious to the message in the video that you "like" boxer13's obviously wrong statement??

    Blood loss is what kills; the target might be up and running for quite awhile after being shot and before bleeding out; the mythical "stopping power" is never even remotely addressed anywhere in the doctor's presentation.

    Let's keep our eye on the ball, 'k?
     
  13. Lange22250

    Lange22250 Milwaukie Active Member

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  14. CasualShooter

    CasualShooter Des Moines New Member

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    Good video, informative lecture (I didn't even nod off once). It's also good to see this type of information being taught to first responders.
     
  15. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    Coupla things from a guy who has been around defensive gun use for a while

    1) The 147 grain 9MMs initially were abysmal manstoppers and did not expand.. they were in fact designed for MP5 sub guns with supressors. These days bullet tech has made quantum leaps and they do actually work pretty well on dropping attackers

    2) We want to stop them, not necessarily kill them if it's just personal defense in today's world.. so a spine shot is in fact your best stopper.. and that can only be possible if your bullet fully penetrates.. problem? If it does with enough force you can hit innocents with it, maybe even those you are trying to protect.. it's a trade off that you have to toss into the mix. Me... I err on the side of penetration, but just a bit, hoping for a balance.. say 40 cal? I use 155 grain Speer GDs. 45 ACP? 185 grain DPX or Cor Bon Sierra bullet loads.. 200 grain is good too. I also load all chambers with a magsafe just in case it's point blank and I can start out with a headshot on the worst perp

    3) If you really want to near instantly stop a bad guy your best bet is a serious load of 12 GA buckshot.. it's like a mini grapeshot cannon and is famous for ending fights
     
  16. Akathepriest

    Akathepriest Astoria, OR Active Member

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    No doubt on the shotgun buckshot, nothing out there can deliver as much force.

    I never really thought of the first round deal, thats interesting.
     
  17. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Really interesting video. I knew that handguns are far inferior to a rifle for killing but I didn't realize that the vast majority of those shot with handguns survive. I am amazed at what physicians can do even to those who seem to be severly injured. The one thing I took away from the video is that if you really want to stop an attacker with a handgun "right now" a throat or head shot is a must.
     
  18. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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  19. Akathepriest

    Akathepriest Astoria, OR Active Member

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    .22lr has a lot of energy you know. This is why you need to be sure to be safe. Otherwise you might blow an arm off. But seriously I hope that guy regained use of his arm. Hopefully that luck continues carrying with him since it was his arm instead of his chest.