NOW: Appeals Court rejects move to stop wolf hunt

[Gunner3456]

I've got news for some of you wolf huggers. There are a LOT of 2, 5, 10, and 20,000 acre ranches all across the N. areas we are discussing. I'm not talking about grazing federal lands. I'm talking about fee simple ownership. There is no way that a rancher can keep an eye on his land at all times, and no way, as someone suggested, that you could cover the area with speakers and sounds to scare off wolves.

These ranchers have generations of independence and freedom bred into them. They have the same for protecting their herds. If we don't set up a management system to control the wolf population, believe me the ranchers will do it themselves. I've got more news for you. Those same ranchers also help themselves to deer or (preferably) elk for their table because they feel entitled. Those animals feed in their alfalfa, even at the barns and open-sided hay sheds.

I've got more news for you. There is no way that the authorities can police that. The areas are just too huge.

I would far rather that we had a chance to hunt the wolves than to leave it to the ranchers to cut down the population, but cut it down they will. They will kill the wolves and use their equipment to bury them and they won't get caught. Remember, they have the same rights against search and seizure and search warrants on their thousands of acres as you do at your city lot and house. Probable cause will be non-existent and there will be no search. That which is unseen is unknown.

Remember, it's not just a cow or calf or bull. It's years of breeding and that herd has been developed for decades. That cow or bull might be worth ten times its weight as beef for breeding. The rancher isn't going to stand for them being killed.

So take your pick. Control the herds with managed hunts, or leave it to the ranchers.

 

[JGRuby]

As in any case where animals are killed illegally the perpetrator should be when found prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. I say we put a 250000$ fine on a illegally taken wolf and a 50000$ fee for turning someone in that has killed a wolf illegally ( which comes from the fine to the perpetrator ) - that should put some teeth to the law. You get a permit on killing a wolf from law enforecement and no issues. Ranchers may choose to break the law - we cannot stop that but we can punish those who do when they are caught. We should also bump the fines up on the big game animals simillarly. Wild animals are not the property of a ranch. We wont get very many but those that are prosecuted will be examples to others.

Michigan has more wolves than Oregon does and yet has a deer population problem - they even had a second season there this year so how can these oposing views be true if the wolves are such horrid killing machines. You are also more likely to be attacked by a domesticated dog than a wolf in your lifetime yet everyone is scared of wolf attacking them / eating them - this is a simple scare tactic.

The problem as I see it is the ranchers not the wolves. Keep the ranchers out of the state and national forrests and give them back to the wildlife that belong there.

James Ruby

 

[JGRuby]

Jamie from your thread on the Mckenzie wolf it states in the first line "The Mackenzie Valley Wolf (Canis lupus occidentalis) also known as the Canadian Timber Wolf is perhaps the largest subspecies of Gray Wolf in North America." They are a grey wolf - Wake up Jamie - your own thread even says so. They are genetically a Grey Wolf. You are pulling at threads.

James Ruby

 

[Gunner3456]

As in any case where animals are killed illegally the perpetrator should be when found prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. I say we put a 250000$ fine on a illegally taken wolf and a 50000$ fee for turning someone in that has killed a wolf illegally ( which comes from the fine to the perpetrator ) - that should put some teeth to the law. You get a permit on killing a wolf from law enforecement and no issues. Ranchers may choose to break the law - we cannot stop that but we can punish those who do when they are caught. We should also bump the fines up on the big game animals simillarly. Wild animals are not the property of a ranch. We wont get very many but those that are prosecuted will be examples to others.

Michigan has more wolves than Oregon does and yet has a deer population problem - they even had a second season there this year so how can these oposing views be true if the wolves are such horrid killing machines. You are also more likely to be attacked by a domesticated dog than a wolf in your lifetime yet everyone is scared of wolf attacking them / eating them - this is a simple scare tactic.

The problem as I see it is the ranchers not the wolves. Keep the ranchers out of the state and national forrests and give them back to the wildlife that belong there.

James Ruby

So, how much do you want people to pay for beef? How much should McDonald's hamburger cost? Your idea puts a bullet in the heart of supply and demand.

In ALL of my life around Eastern Oregon and Washington and Montana and Wyoming ranchers, and I mean big ranchers, I've never once heard of one being caught taking an elk or deer for the dinner table. They are simply out of sight of anyone who's not on their property, and anyone on their property is trespassing, and that includes LEOs without a warrant. How are they going to get a warrant without probable cause? Do you think their family will turn them in? The ranch hands live in separate housing and aren't included when an animal is taken.

When the ranch hands are fed elk, do you think they know whether it was one of several taken legally during hunting season, or one shot illegally? Even the animals taken legally by the ranch hands during season are put into a large walk-in freezer to feed everyone.

My wife's family owns a 4,000 acre ranch in Eastern Oregon. It's 1/2 wheat and 1/2 cattle. The wheat and alfalfa land is pretty level and good soil, and much of the cattle spring and summer grazing is rolling canyon. You can't see in there. You can't see the house and barn until you're well onto the property. I'm not saying they take animals illegally, but they sure could.

They could also kill wolves. Even the ranch hands would do that. It's their livelihood.

 

[JGRuby]

If they dont do something illegal then they dont have to worry about the fine - they choose to do it legally or they choose to do it illegally - either way its the ranchers choice. The price of the market is controlled by supply and demand if the price of a hamburger goes up to high people quit buying them - pretty simple. I would bet that if the ranchers could get 100$ a pound for hamburger they would be liquidating as many head as they could. Ranching is a business like anything else.

James Ruby

 

[Jamie6.5]

Jamie from your thread on the Mckenzie wolf it states in the first line "The Mackenzie Valley Wolf (Canis lupus occidentalis) also known as the Canadian Timber Wolf is perhaps the largest subspecies of Gray Wolf in North America." They are a grey wolf - Wake up Jamie - your own thread even says so. They are genetically a Grey Wolf. You are pulling at threads.
James Ruby

Be careful where you tread JG.
If the same logic is applied to salmon for instance, all coho salmon will be grouped together and the various sub-species will be tossed off the ESA.
Not to mention the FACT that if all gray wolves are the same species, then they aren't REALLY an endangered species are they?!?
You mentioned Michigan wolves. I would mention MN, WI and most provinces in Canada. Then there's the gray wolf count in Alaska,...

How few "gray wolves" does there need to be to meet ESA standards?!??????

Thanks for making my argument.
You are the one "pulling at threads."
This thread to be precise.

There is no reason for the gray wolf to be on the Endangered, or threatened species list now is there JG,...
And since overall, their numbers are doing fine, there is NO NEED to protect them!

Or are they distinct subspecies?

Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Gunner3456]

If they dont do something illegal then they dont have to worry about the fine - they choose to do it legally or they choose to do it illegally - either way its the ranchers choice. The price of the market is controlled by supply and demand if the price of a hamburger goes up to high people quit buying them - pretty simple. I would bet that if the ranchers could get 100$ a pound for hamburger they would be liquidating as many head as they could. Ranching is a business like anything else.

James Ruby

Now you would break every fast food restaurant in the country, every meat market, and badly damage the economy. People aren't going to pay $100 a pound for beef. You would also break every livestock auction house and every butcher. Can you imagine the devastation to the economy?

I really don't know where you're coming from, but it isn't anywhere which breeds intelligence.

Jamie, above, explained the plethora of wolves which exist all over without needing them to devastate our economy in the Western US.

 

[Gunner3456]

If they dont do something illegal then they dont have to worry about the fine - they choose to do it legally or they choose to do it illegally - either way its the ranchers choice. The price of the market is controlled by supply and demand if the price of a hamburger goes up to high people quit buying them - pretty simple. I would bet that if the ranchers could get 100$ a pound for hamburger they would be liquidating as many head as they could. Ranching is a business like anything else.

James Ruby

James, just get used to it. An overpopulation of wolves is NOT going to be allowed to devastate the sheep and cattle ranching in the US. Somebody is going to stop it, whether you like it or not, and that's a fact.

Oh, and I don't know a rancher who wouldn't rather pay a $250,000 fine than to have his prized herd devastated. A good 16 month old steer is worth about $1,000 today. A prize breeding cow or bull might be worth $25,000. I don't know any real rancher with real a real ranch who couldn't afford a $250,000 fine even if you could catch him, which you can't.

 

[orygun]

I have heard twice that the species of wolf are not the same that originally existed in Eastern Oregon, Idaho and Washington - I dont beleive that - if they were in Canada as stated then they also could have been in these areas at one time as well.

If the ranchers kept their cattle on thier own land then the wolf would not be presented with so many cattle. With less food the wolf population would be controlled.

James Ruby

To follow your logic we would "know" that we only have one species of deer and one of elk in Oregon. That is far from correct. You prove nothing with your assumption.

Also, remove the food source from any animal and they will seek it out. Taking the grazing animals out of the forest will not keep the wolves in the forest.
What's your real beef (pun intended) with the ranchers? You certainly must have one because, like already mentioned, you keep bringing up the grazing issue.

 

[Gunner3456]

Well, first reports, and I've heard nothing different, is that these wolves were imported from Canada where there are lots of such wolves and they are not endangered. Every credible source I've read says that it's a different variety from what was native here. Every credible source I've read says they are bigger and more aggressive.

Even if the variety issue is false, the clear fact that they thrive in Canada removes any endangered argument about them.

Whatever they are, it's better to have a hunting season on them to control the population than it is to let them breed until they are devastating herds when have been bred for decades to produce the maximum amount of meat or milk or wool on the same amount of feed that lesser animals produce. Ranchers have prize and hard-won herds.

If we don't keep them in check and they begin causing severe losses to ranchers, they will be completely wiped out again. Count on it. Some people just don't understand the old West mentality of those ranchers and their sense of ownership of their ranches and animals (which I agree with but that's not the point. The point is that it's true.)

In most areas, ranchers don't use public lands. Their ranches butt right up to each other and only a minority have federal grazing rights. Whatever goes on within their fences is within their right to control, in their opinions. I have to agree because if there was a pack of wolves or coyotes on my property chasing our pet dogs, I'd shoot them too.

For the federal government to tell a man what he can or can't do on his own property, or to give similar orders to the states is unconstitutional IMHO. A state should be able to, within reason, manage wildlife, but it shouldn't be able to tell a man he can't protect his property.

 

[JGRuby]

There are many different species of wolves as there is / are differences in deer -A white tail deer is sperate or rather a parallel species to the mule deer for example

The 10 valid subspecies based on the 3rd edition of Mammal Species of the World are:[3]

Mule deer (sensu stricto) group:
O. h. californicus – California mule deer
O. h. cerrosensis – Cedros/Cerros Island mule deer (Cedros Island)
O. h. eremicus – Desert/burro mule deer (northwest Mexico and Arizona)
O. h. fuliginatus – Southern mule deer (southernmost California and Baja California)
O. h. hemionus – Rocky Mountain mule deer (western and central North America)
O. h. inyoensis – Inyo mule deer (Sierra Nevada, California)
O. h. peninsulae – Peninsula mule deer (Baja California Sur)
O. h. sheldoni – Tiburon Island mule deer (Tiburon Island)
Black-tailed deer group:
O. h. columbi**** – Black-tailed deer (Pacific Northwest and Northern California regions)
O. h. sitkensis – Sitka black-tailed deer (coastal area and islands off western British Columbia)
Mule deer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You will find no one calling a white tail a subspcies of a mule deer.

You will fnd in many places where a Mckenzie wolf a timber wof is a subspecies ofthe Grey Wolf. So that logic doesnt hold water. ( as previoulsy pointed out )


Regardless of my feelings towards ranchers -this is about the wolf population and the primary group going against the wolf population question is the rancher /farmer, there might be a few others -but this is a many century old issue. I have tried to stay away from the grazing issue and would be more than happy to discuss my dislike for ranchers in another thread.

A person or a group of people that willing break the law for thier own benefit is a criminal - that choice is made by an individual -shoot game out of season and you become a specific type of criminal called a poacher.

James Ruby

 

[Gunner3456]

You will fnd in many places where a Mckenzie wolf a timber wof is a subspecies ofthe Grey Wolf. So that logic doesnt hold water. ( as previoulsy pointed out )

Regardless of my feelings towards ranchers -this is about the wolf population and the primary group going against the wolf population question is the rancher /farmer, there might be a few others -but this is a many century old issue. I have tried to stay away from the grazing issue and would be more than happy to discuss my dislike for ranchers in another thread.

A person or a group of people that willing break the law for thier own benefit is a criminal - that choice is made by an individual -shoot game out of season and you become a specific type of criminal called a poacher.

James Ruby

I can't teach you anything so I'm outta here. I don't know if you're PETA, or just anti-capitalism or what, but I know you didn't grow up on a ranch where you took huge losses in calves just from coyotes and shot every coyote you saw to protect your investment. You or your family didn't spend a bunch of money on a huge tract of land, spend a ton of money planting, irrigating and bailing alfalfa only to have deer and elk eat all of it they wanted. You didn't have to run a ranch as a business and protect your investment and your profits, or even just break even.

You haven't run a ranch during those times when beef prices are so low you had to sell off half your herd because it didn't pay to feed them, only to see deer and elk eat the feed you would have fed them. You didn't have some disease hit you that killed a lot of your animals. You didn't have to keep a constant eye out for rustlers who would steal a truckload of your animals in the night on your property but 2 miles from your house.

Living that life gives you a different perspective and you haven't walked a mile in those peoples' shoes. You don't have a clue.

As said, Unsubscribed. You're unteachable.

 

[Jamie6.5]

You will fnd in many places where a Mckenzie wolf a timber wof is a subspecies ofthe Grey Wolf. So that logic doesnt hold water. ( as previoulsy pointed out )
James Ruby

All righty then!
Using your "logic," there are plenty of "gray wolves." So many that they don't deserve ESA status.
Discussion OVER!!

How many times do you have to hear/read it James?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[JGRuby]

I was raised on a cattle farm -I remember the stench of the urine soaked amonia hay /straw from having to clean barn,s I remember almost losing my arm in a case baler -instead of going to the hospital I tried to work with a broken arm, it took three days in the hospital before the swelling went down far enough to put a cast on. I also remember the hay mows and thinking my dad was one mean SOB when I was in my early teens and we were still putting hay up at 3:00AM because rain was coming in. I remember the calves that died when we did all we could for them. I remember not being able to go on vacation becuase we were tied down with livestock or my dad pulling his stiches out after his appendix was removed trying to help a cow calf. I have been there - it was a hard challenging life. Raising cattle and cutting cords of wood made me physically strong and though I hated the work it was actually to my own good.

The rule of thumb back then was if a dog was caught chasing cattle or game the dog was put down -we did not want 80% of the dogs killed, only those causing a problem. These ranchers want all wolves put down. You did not kill a dog simpy because you saw one. I once shot my dog with birdshot because he lit out after a deer, the shot stung but old Red learned from it. Red lived a long healthy life. My dad also did not expect the average taxpayer to cover his exspenses and make him profitable. I know it's sad but I got so tired of eating beef -I really enjoy a steak today when I can afford them.

Now I will correct myself as I feel that I am in error - I only have a problem with those ranchers who use the tax sponsored grazng process. Save thier own grazing fields and feel that the wild life on thier property is thiers. Even as a farmer we did not feel that was our privledge.

James Ruby

 

[iusmc2002]

These ranchers want the right to protect their bubblegum against the wolves, without interference from the gubbernmint! Would you have been madder at your S.O.B. father if, after putting hay up until the wee hours of the morning, you THEN had to go sit out on your herd and keep predatory animals way? Animals you KNOW are out there, and ARE going to take down other animals for sport? Be it bovine or ungulates. It's GOING TO HAPPEN if the wolf population isn't kept in check.

You advocate for a massive fine for killing a wolf. Isn't there some type of protection for these animals from the gubbernmint already? I can't seem to remember what it's called...........

ESA! Thats it! Now I recall the name of the federal protections for these animals. A MANAGED wolf population would be a boon to the northwest's economy. When Idoho sold tags (last year I think) the stats on the monies collected covered nearly 3/4 of the cost the state pays yearly to "manage" their wolves (by order of the feds) The licenses were sold without a gaurantee that the payee would get a wolf because they were only going to allow a specific number of wolves to be taken, regardless of how many tags were sold, the state would shut the season down when the quota was taken. Those tags sold to people all the way from GERMANY! How much extraneous money did those individual tags bring into the state? Sure, those people coming in from out of state were relatively minor in comparison to the in-state purchases, but in this economy, every dollar helps. If states had something unusual to hunt, like wolves or a herd of sasquatches, those tags ARE going to sell and they can put whatever price they want on them, thereby increasing the states revenue. In conclusion, the state brings money in, the wolves get "managed" to an acceptable level for the state gubbernmint, fewer ranchers raise a fuss and force legal battles.
Jesus, why do you think the wolves were wiped out to begin with? Because it was fun? Because the settlers didn't have bubblegum else to do; you know, like work their land to make it usable? If the ranchers have a problem with these wolves, they WILL manage them themselves. Shoot, shovel and shut up. Thats what will happen. Might as well try and manage them right, and make a little money for the state coffers at the same time.

 

[orygun]

I was raised on a cattle farm -I remember the stench of the urine soaked amonia hay /straw from having to clean barn,s I remember almost losing my arm in a case baler -instead of going to the hospital I tried to work with a broken arm, it took three days in the hospital before the swelling went down far enough to put a cast on. I also remember the hay mows and thinking my dad was one mean SOB when I was in my early teens and we were still putting hay up at 3:00AM because rain was coming in. I remember the calves that died when we did all we could for them. I remember not being able to go on vacation becuase we were tied down with livestock or my dad pulling his stiches out after his appendix was removed trying to help a cow calf. I have been there - it was a hard challenging life. Raising cattle and cutting cords of wood made me physically strong and though I hated the work it was actually to my own good.

The rule of thumb back then was if a dog was caught chasing cattle or game the dog was put down -we did not want 80% of the dogs killed, only those causing a problem. These ranchers want all wolves put down. You did not kill a dog simpy because you saw one. I once shot my dog with birdshot because he lit out after a deer, the shot stung but old Red learned from it. Red lived a long healthy life. My dad also did not expect the average taxpayer to cover his exspenses and make him profitable. I know it's sad but I got so tired of eating beef -I really enjoy a steak today when I can afford them.

Now I will correct myself as I feel that I am in error - I only have a problem with those ranchers who use the tax sponsored grazng process. Save thier own grazing fields and feel that the wild life on thier property is thiers. Even as a farmer we did not feel that was our privledge.

James Ruby

The more you talk, the less I believe. Even if you are telling the truth, you ain't from around here if you call yourself a "farmer".

ps. please learn the proper spelling and use of the words they, their, they're and theirs. That BUBBLEGUM drives me NUTZ!

 

[JGRuby]

Orygun - the last thing I really care is wether you are happy or not and wether you beleive me is your problem. I have stated my position and will stand by it.

James Ruby

 

[bassman2]

Just now seeing this thread and I can tell that some Portlander needs to go spend some real time in the Eastern part of the state or in some Idaho wilderness. Just from a few weeks in the most remote part of Idaho - I can tell you that a pack of wolves came into camp twice with the outfitter we used last year.

They tried to get at the horses and were not scared of humans. They did stop and growl at the camp cook and the packers made noise and chased them away. They were within 15 feet of the crew.

From a hunting perspective - the deer and elk were few and far between - unlike I have ever seen after spending two weeks in camp and having lots of experience in the wilderness.

 

[orygun]

Orygun - the last thing I really care is wether you are happy or not and wether you beleive me is your problem. I have stated my position and will stand by it.

James Ruby

Works both ways.

Your position here is on shaky ground. You've drank too much of "someone's" Kool-Aid.

 

[clownbuster]

It speaks volumes that nobody agrees with you James, myself included. You are clearly more butt-hurt about how much you THINK all these cattle ranchers PAY for Fed grazing right than you are about them having a voice in how the wolves are mangaged. But here in AMERICA, if you develop a contract, and pay for something, you are then not only privlileged to it, you are ENTITLED to it, until the contract expires. If low dollars/acre is what the Fed wants for the graze on their land, then go peck*r slap them, not the rancher who CAPITALIZES on it. Your right on ONE point, the wolves do not need to be exterminated, only managed. However, your obvious personal problem with the evil domestic terrorists, "The Cattle Ranchers!", doesnt mean sh!t to somebody like myself. Like I said before, I've seen the devastation of the current unmanaged wolf herds through MT, ID, WY, CO, and Canada (who by the way, hunts the wolf YEAR ROUND like we do the Coyotes here) for over two decades, and sympathize with the ranchers who are the ONLY ones who have lost BOTH time and $$ in this very clearly mismanaged problem. Until you've personally seen the effects or have personally lost income from this mismanaged problem, your "opinion" is noted, please leave it at that. With all your monologuing from the altar, I'm not sure if you are trying to impress yourself or everyone else, but please, continue with your monologue, because, as previously stated, no one, not even someone that has seen it with their own eyes, can educate you.