My business has been robbed 3 times. When can I shoot?

[2Wheels4Ever]

I know legal advise on the internet is worth as much as you pay for it, but I am curious about a certain scenario.

I have a small business and usually my wife is the only one in the building. For the first year we had zero issues, but I guess we have been scoped out as an easy target recently. In the past 2 weeks we have been robbed/burglarized 3 times. Twice people have tried to run out with product, and once a man tried to get cash.

Here is how that last one went down, and where my legal questioning comes into play:

This man walks up to the front counter and demands money, when my wife told him that we don't carry cash, he told her that he has a gun (no gun was visible.) After my wife restated that we don't have cash, and then told the would-be thief that she also has a gun, the man fled.

If a robber tells you they have a gun/threatens to kill you, but no gun is visible, is that reasonable doubt?

Here is the ORS on the matter.



161.219 Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person. Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209, a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

(1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or

(2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or

(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]

Read More

 

[AMT]

I would assume that "if you are in fear of your life, or the life of the people around you", then you have every right to defend yourself and those around you.

Also, isn't Oregon considered a "Castle" state?

 

[Member 34319]

Wife draws weapon on perk for threats.

Idiot goes to draw something from pocket.

Wife fires on perk.

All recorded on CCTV.

I'd say she had cause.

I'd definitely say she should be more vigilant in presenting her case more rapidly. I would have already had my gun pointed at the guy with the mere threat of him stating having a gun.

Different story of coarse if he walked in with his gun out and ready. I'd say in this case she wouldn't want to say anything about having a gun on her end, do as she is instructed by bad guy and try not to do anything to get shot. Training can help with this. However, it's not worth dying to draw on a person who already has his weapon pointed right at you. If a moment came we're she could draw, that's up to her and training can assist with knowing good moments.

All in all.

Moral of the story, you are likely insured, and you are both still alive. Hard to argue that one. Doing anything else could jeopardize the being alive part.

Glad you guys are safe and alive. This is something no one wants to deal with.

 

[Jonnyuma]

Record EVERYTHING... include sound if at all possible.
Even if the action happens off-camera, you still have audio.

I'm sorry that your wife had to go through those ordeals, but it sounds like she handled them correctly and 100% "within the law" from a non enthusiasts' point of view.

By that I only mean that many of us "enthusiasts" might advocate the declaration of a gun by the BG to be enough threat to justify draw-shoot... I can't say I'd disagree.

In the real world there are detectives, judges and DAs that won't be in yours or her cheering section... A/V seems like a good way to prove you're innocence.

Yeah, I get that you shouldn't have to prove your innocence... let's keep w the real world here...

 

[Cerberus Group]

In Washington I taught a Deadly Force Review class, and the 161.219 reads closely that of Washington's RCW 9A.16.020 and 050

If you can articulate the facts of the statute, which are plain in Oregon's...one does not need to see a weapon. If a weapon is implied, you're good.

The facts you presented are exactly the example I give in class, but the scenario is a bank. Person comes to teller, asks for money, says he has a gun but none is seen.

1 - Does that give the teller 'reasonable' belief that the person will employ said weapon if demands are not met? Courts have ruled; Yes

2 - Can the teller employ deadly force themselves given the facts of the case? Courts have ruled; Yes

The down side...the justice you get is dependent upon where it happens. If this happens in a more liberal area...well, ya know...

Bottom line...seek out an attorney that's well versed in use of force issues, and for the cost of a case of ammo or so meet with them and go over law, scenarios, training, and anything else you can think of. Then keep their biz card close if something comes up.

 

[titsonritz]

After my wife restated that we don't have cash, and then told the would-be thief that she also has a gun, the man fled.

Never announce you have a gun, it's presentation needs no introduction, it is universally understood and easily explained if not. Your wife would have been within her right and the law to shoot the scumbag threatening her life.

 

[clearconscience]

Can you get a doberman?

Get good cctv cameras and display signs.

Once bad guys know your armed they may stay away, but they may also shoot first then look for loot.
Get a remote access door lock, outdoor cameras, and always be looking.

 

[2Wheels4Ever]

Never announce you have a gun, it's presentation needs no introduction, it is universally understood and easily explained if not. Your wife would have been within her right and the law to shoot the scumbag threatening her life.

Yeah I know this, but the old lady doesn't. I did not want to patronize how she handled the situation, but I'll give her some more training as time heals the mental wounds.

 

[2Wheels4Ever]

Can you get a doberman?

Get good cctv cameras and display signs.

Once bad guys know your armed they may stay away, but they may also shoot first then look for loot.
Get a remote access door lock, outdoor cameras, and always be looking.

Yeah, we have a couple cameras on order.

 

[OregonArmsAmmo]

Bottom line...seek out an attorney that's well versed in use of force issues, and for the cost of a case of ammo or so meet with them and go over law, scenarios, training, and anything else you can think of. Then keep their biz card close if something comes up.

This is the best advice here. Speak to an attorney ASAP.

Unfortunately you have found yourself in a situation with very few / Zero ways to come out ahead. Another thing to think about is secondary to your safety and your wife's safety is even if something happens that is justified you could very well be burned in the court of public opinion, open yourselves up to reprisal from their friends or face a lawsuit.

If at all possible try and get someone else in their with your wife, another employee, a relative, a friend ETC. IMO the more people around the less likely they are to rob you. Another thought you might have is depending on the business is there a feasible way to limit entry / access to the business?

I'm very sorry that you guys are stuck in this situation. If you'd like to PM me with some more details I can share some of my more specific thoughts as these kinds of situations are something we've spent a lot of time / energy thinking about and coming up with idea's and plans.

 

[Member 34319]

In Washington I taught a Deadly Force Review class, and the 161.219 reads closely that of Washington's RCW 9A.16.020 and 050

If you can articulate the facts of the statute, which are plain in Oregon's...one does not need to see a weapon. If a weapon is implied, you're good.

The facts you presented are exactly the example I give in class, but the scenario is a bank. Person comes to teller, asks for money, says he has a gun but none is seen.

1 - Does that give the teller 'reasonable' belief that the person will employ said weapon if demands are not met? Courts have ruled; Yes

2 - Can the teller employ deadly force themselves given the facts of the case? Courts have ruled; Yes

The down side...the justice you get is dependent upon where it happens. If this happens in a more liberal area...well, ya know...

Bottom line...seek out an attorney that's well versed in use of force issues, and for the cost of a case of ammo or so meet with them and go over law, scenarios, training, and anything else you can think of. Then keep their biz card close if something comes up.

It wouldn't hurt in time to.

Get in touch with @Cerberus Group and schedule some training.

 

[Kruel J]

Sigh....

Speak to an attorney. Asking on an open forum when it's ok to shoot someone is inherently dangerous and could be used against you in a court of law. NWFA isn't the place to ask these kinds of questions as only an attorney can provide you real answers. And represent you if things truly go bad.

All of us here can offer our opinions but they don't mean squat in the eyes of the law.

@2Wheels4Ever I hope you understand my position here.

Thread closed.