Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

Murder Rates: Why Comparing The United States Only To Other Developed Countries Is Deceitful

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by darrenlobo, Jul 9, 2015.

  1. darrenlobo

    darrenlobo New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    4
  2. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    Likes Received:
    644
    Most murders happen in a few hot spots: Detroit, New Orleans, Baltimore, Newark, Oakland, East St. Louis, .... Eliminate those outliers and the rest of the US appears a much more peaceful place, in line with many other countries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    It's no mystery that the sub-Saharan countries are rife with murder, almost without exception. And it's not about poverty or overcrowding: look at how low the rate is in Bangladesh, for example.

    It's a complicated equation and I'm not attempting to oversimplify it, but we are seemingly unable to have a serious discussion about race and crime in this country. It's truly shameful, since the black community suffers the greatest loss of life, almost always at the hands of black killers. Roughly 1/16th of the US population - black males - commit half the murders. That's outrageous, and it demands more than "blamestorming" in response.

    All this media noise about "terrorists" or police killings can't change the fact that common criminals kill three dozen Americans a day, mostly just for the paper in their pockets. Instead of making excuses or simply sweeping up the pieces after the damage is done, we need to ask how and why whole generations of young people are being recruited and trained into the thug life.
     
    Koda, Caveman Jim and aslinged like this.
  3. darrenlobo

    darrenlobo New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    4
    The issue isn't race but social dynamics. If you look at the chart in my article you'll see several sub-Saharan countries listed. Matter of fact, the pic MalawiHospital.jpg with the article was taken by my wife while on a business trip to Malawi. She said it's very safe there. On the other hand she didn't care for South Africa which is very dangerous. Goes to show that race is irrelevant.

    There is a valid comparison to be made between the US & Europe. In the US blacks have the highest murder rate. In Europe it's ethnic Russians who have a high murder rate. It has nothing to do with race or the presence of guns. It's all about social factors. Check out this talk on the subject http://nij.gov/multimedia/presenter/presenter-roth/Pages/welcome.aspx
     
  4. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    Likes Received:
    644
    "Blacks" aren't one thing worldwide; the Africans I know as fellow musicians are totally, completely, different from American blacks, both in culture and in attitude. The two don't get along as a rule, either. So I'm really talking about the experience here in the US of A, where no amount of "social dynamics" handwaving can explain away even half the vastly disparate rates of violence in poor, isolated communities without accounting for race.

    Americans are nearly unique in our tendency to idolize great criminals, with the possible exception of small regions like Sicily. Unfortunately, that "independent spirit" has also excused the excesses of generations of people who have been taught that there are no other heroes and no other success stories in their communities but the gangstas and thugs.

    Your point about Malawi is well taken; would you care to mention any of the other outliers on the African murder-rate trend? Like Libya's even lower rate? Is that your idea of a peaceful solution to crime?

    Every rule has an exception, and Malawi is a tragically small example that's an island of sanity in a continent of mayhem.
     
  5. darrenlobo

    darrenlobo New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    4
    I stand by my social dynamics idea Prof Roth goes into it in depth here http://nij.gov/multimedia/presenter/presenter-roth/Pages/welcome.aspx He points out that in Europe it's ethnic Russians that have a high murder rate. Last I checked Russians are the same race as other Europeans.
     
  6. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    Likes Received:
    644
    I agree with the broad claim of "social dynamics," but I differ with how that's interpreted vis-a-vis culture. Unless and until the people in those communities want to change, it's not going to happen. That's the point: people who self-identify first and foremost as Russian or black or Arab or whatever rather than as American can and do tolerate criminals in their midst so long as they look and act the same.

    Besides, the Russians will tell you that it's the Georgians who are the violent ones, and they'd be right.
     
  7. tiggers97

    tiggers97 United States Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    870
    Likes Received:
    792
    This is a chart that I was able to confirm and re-create on my own (minus one country that I didn't think was really a country or territory IMHO) that supports the above. Comparing "developed" countries is like trying to say the pearl district in down-town Portland represents every other town and neighborhood in the entire state or Oregon. There are poor places and rich places. Good and bad areas. As can be found in the world, or across the USA.

    https://www.facebook.com/UnbiasedAm...41828.123061011213236/299579676894701/?type=1
     
  8. NSDQ

    NSDQ NW Portland, Oregon Active Member

    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    100
    I would also argue that that violence is intrinsically linked to poverty. African Americans make up one of the poorest demographics. Thug life is just a consequence of situation. I think a majority of gang members were born into gangs. If you're born in poverty that gang is your net. How do you get out of poverty? EDUCATION right?

    90 percent of public schools are funded by property taxes versus in 1950 they were heavily funded by the federal government. The difference between a public school in the poorest neighborhood versus the richest neighborhood by dollar per child was a margin of less than 20 percent. Fast forward to 2015 In the United states that margin can be as high as 80 percent. Take Riverdale High School here in Portland, it's ranked one of the best high schools in the nation with 35 percent of their students being accepted to Ivy league universities. Compare it to Park Rose High school with a 30 percent drop out rate and also 80 percent African American. Whats the difference between these high schools? Park rose gets around 1200 dollars per student versus River dale gets 5800 dollars per child. Huge difference in funding. Riverdale has 220 students and Park rose has over 1000. Statistically speaking who has the better chance of becoming a criminal? How do you get to a good school? You have to live in that district. The average home in the Riverdale district is over $750,000 versus the Park Rose district at roughly $150,000 mean home value.

    Crime has a DIRECT correlation to poverty and poverty is directly linked to education.

    Consequently if black neighborhoods are stuck with substandard education, it make sense as to why 50 percent of African Americans own firearms. This would also explain a large proportion of black on black crimes. Primarily due to the fact that isolated poverty just means isolated violence. There have been numerous case studies on this issue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
    bakersman345 likes this.
  9. Provincial

    Provincial Near Salem, OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    548
    According to usgovernmentspending.com, federal spending was about 2.3 percent of GDP in 1953. It is now about 5.0 percent, or about double.

    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending

    I started Elementery School in 1956, and remember property tax ballots were a big issue in school funding. The State of Oregon now funds a major portion of K-12 school budgets, and sends the same dollar amount per student to each school. This has had a balancing effect on education spending per student.

    Rich districts will have more property tax revenue available. They will also have students who have positive role models. There is a strong argument that the role models are more important than school spending.
     
    bakersman345 likes this.