More Target Shooting Trouble in the forest...

[Koda]

So let me pitch you a thought.

You pull up to a site to shoot. There are targets stapled to a stump. You leave them there and set up.

A trooper pulls in. Sees the targets on the stumps. Sites you and writes a ticket.

Do you get angry and not go back out?

Do you take down the targets the next time out if you see any?

would the wrong doers now get an even worse image because of this?

I've seen dirt bikers go off on a guy for doing something up at Browns Camp. I was a little taken back. I bet they never did it again though.

I'm just here to poke some ideas around and ask questions.

I would go to court and claim not guilty. But I get your point, yes I would take down the targets next time. Thing is... I already do that.

The real question is if the person who put the target on the stump would stop doing it when he gets ticketed for it? I think so how could they not. The real problem here is not a permit for shooters but the manpower for LEO to go out and catch these guys in the act. The thing I don't understand is why this is so hard to do, given the amount of trash left behind and downed trees. Every time I drive down Salmonberry I see people shooting at bottles and other stuff. I drove by some folks shooting at the spot that has no backstop, most every time I go in fact. Last time I went I saw a guy stapling a target to a tree, a living tree.

If there is no manpower to catch these guys already doing illegal shooting, then there is no manpower to patrol for permits and the trash shooters still do their thing. Im leaning harder to not voting for the permit idea.

 

[Koda]

My bullets probably went all the way through into the dirt berm, but can't be too careful, especially this time of year.

just a quick note the same fire risk can happen in the dry ground. Last time I went I took a 5 gal jug of water and doused the ground around where the bullets impacted. Its really bad out there this year, the worst year for forest fires Ive seen.

 

[Member 34319]

I would go to court and claim not guilty. But I get your point, yes I would take down the targets next time. Thing is... I already do that.

The real question is if the person who put the target on the stump would stop doing it when he gets ticketed for it? I think so how could they not. The real problem here is not a permit for shooters but the manpower for LEO to go out and catch these guys in the act. The thing I don't understand is why this is so hard to do, given the amount of trash left behind and downed trees. Every time I drive down Salmonberry I see people shooting at bottles and other stuff. I drove by some folks shooting at the spot that has no backstop, most every time I go in fact. Last time I went I saw a guy stapling a target to a tree, a living tree.

If there is no manpower to catch these guys already doing illegal shooting, then there is no manpower to patrol for permits and the trash shooters still do their thing. Im leaning harder to not voting for the permit idea.

I agree.

However, the current enforcement makes more money enforcing certain things. Mostly OHV use. ODF mostly patrols campgrounds to ensure payments are being made.

See where I'm going here.

There is likely, not enough money involved in inforcing recreational shooting. Therefor I feel that may be the reason they don't.

I'm working with ODF on this one. I'm really looking for their input to how the whole OHV permit came to life. I'd be interested in learning more about the troubles they faced pre-permit vs post. As well as the usable revenue and if it opened the doors for more enforcement flexibility.

Another thought to ponder.

Browns Camp sees so much OHV and camping use on the weekends, as well as shooting, it is almost certain a deputy will be stationed there on the weekends.

How much money was involved?

 

[CoastRange57]

I would say if ODF wanted to go towards requiring permits. They would reach out to us, the shooting community to build the requirements.

If you think a state agency is going to allow a private group to develop the guidelines for a regulatory program then you must have not dealt with state agencies before. They may do a token information session and then file the input in the round file. Kingdom and fiefdom protection are priority # 1 with any government agency.

 

[Koda]

However, the current enforcement makes more money enforcing certain things. Mostly OHV use. ODF mostly patrols campgrounds to ensure payments are being made.

See where I'm going here.

There is likely, not enough money involved in inforcing recreational shooting. Therefor I feel that may be the reason they don't.

So the permit revenue will pay for patrolling for illegal shooters?

What is the current fine for illegal shooting? Say shooting a live tree or a washing machine or even just a glass bottle... caught in the act?

 

[CoastRange57]

Browns Camp sees so much OHV and camping use on the weekends, as well as shooting, it is almost certain a deputy will be stationed there on the weekends.

Tillamook County already has a deputy up in the their area day shift and night as well. Browns Camp is in Washington County and they will send a deputy for major things otherwise it is up to OSP to handle that area for LE purposes.

 

[CoastRange57]

So let me pitch you a thought.

You pull up to a site to shoot. There are targets stapled to a stump. You leave them there and set up.

A trooper pulls in. Sees the targets on the stumps. Sites you and writes a ticket.

Circumstantial evidence. He did not see you put them up there. Unless you admit to putting them up there he cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you put them up and is not going to cite you for it. He may assume you did but he has no actionable evidence.

 

[Cogs]

Maybe we should do a group drive by meet-n-greet on a Saturday or Sunday. Minimum of 2 people per vehicle. Drive by, stop and say hi to shooters we meet along the roads. Hand out fliers and trash bags and let them know of our concerns and efforts. Have several rigs cruising up and down the roads with signs on the vehicles to show shooters who's coming.

It's a friendly visit and we're not out to catch someone in the act of doing something illegal. Just letting them know of the seriousness of doing recreational shooting right. We would mention the fines that could be imposed, that Law Enforcement does patrol this area and the effects illegal shooting has on gun owners in general.

Do this a couple times a month. Each time, plan on a group shoot when we're done.

Good? Bad? or Ugly idea?

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Sadly the dumpsters will only encourage dumping, not range clean up.

I do like the idea of a two person team meet and greet with bags, flyers and further info and warnings on the status of public land shooting. If we abuse it, we lose it.

 

[Koda]

Good? Bad? or Ugly idea?

good... very good idea Cogs

 

[Cogs]

Sadly the dumpsters will only encourage dumping, not range clean up.

I do like the idea of a two person team meet and greet with bags, flyers and further info and warnings on the status of public land shooting. If we abuse it, we lose it.

Well, it should be okay if we locate the dumpster in a common use area, like a camp ground, gravel yard or even at the gas station down Hwy 26. We keep it locked and only give out the combo to those who sign up for the responsibly.

This program would be for those who always post about how they would certainly remove more but have no place to dispose of it. We may even require no less than 2 bags, otherwise, take it home.

There wouldn't be a sign on it so no one knows what it's for. Only those who are authorized and have the combo.

This is a tough one to figure out but I think we could arrive at a good solution. Still thinking it through.

 

[Member 34319]

If you think a state agency is going to allow a private group to develop the guidelines for a regulatory program then you must have not dealt with state agencies before. They may do a token information session and then file the input in the round file. Kingdom and fiefdom protection are priority # 1 with any government agency.

If this were true why is the ODF creating a committee to review the current shooting rules in Tillamook state forest?

 

[Member 34319]

Circumstantial evidence. He did not see you put them up there. Unless you admit to putting them up there he cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you put them up and is not going to cite you for it. He may assume you did but he has no actionable evidence.

So those sited and ticketed for simply driving into Brown's Camp area for not having a proper ODOT regulated helmet or a proper OHV permit and a truck full of dirt bikes isn't the same thing? How did the sheriff know they were going to actually unload and ride their motorcycles?

 

[Member 34319]

So the permit revenue will pay for patrolling for illegal shooters?

What is the current fine for illegal shooting? Say shooting a live tree or a washing machine or even just a glass bottle... caught in the act?

That's pretty much the idea.

I don't think much thought has been placed on actually enforcing the current laws. Most of the time I hear shooters getting off with mere warnings.

I'll be getting with ODF more on this exact subject as I'm curious to the actual amount of tickets issued monthly/annually.

 

[Member 34319]

Maybe we should do a group drive by meet-n-greet on a Saturday or Sunday. Minimum of 2 people per vehicle. Drive by, stop and say hi to shooters we meet along the roads. Hand out fliers and trash bags and let them know of our concerns and efforts. Have several rigs cruising up and down the roads with signs on the vehicles to show shooters who's coming.

It's a friendly visit and we're not out to catch someone in the act of doing something illegal. Just letting them know of the seriousness of doing recreational shooting right. We would mention the fines that could be imposed, that Law Enforcement does patrol this area and the effects illegal shooting has on gun owners in general.

Do this a couple times a month. Each time, plan on a group shoot when we're done.

Good? Bad? or Ugly idea?

If you like this idea, please reach out to Bill or myself.

 

[Koda]

So the permit revenue will pay for patrolling for illegal shooters?

What is the current fine for illegal shooting? Say shooting a live tree or a washing machine or even just a glass bottle... caught in the act?

That's pretty much the idea.

I don't think much thought has been placed on actually enforcing the current laws. Most of the time I hear shooters getting off with mere warnings.

I'll be getting with ODF more on this exact subject as I'm curious to the actual amount of tickets issued monthly/annually.

Then the warnings have to stop. They are out there giving warnings but don't have the funds to pay for patrolling shooting sites? ... and the problem is still growing to the point were having this discussion of concern of closures. They need to issue citations.

This is just like gun control, we need to enforce the current laws before adding new laws. I don't think I can support requiring responsible shooters to pay and obtain permits until I see the irresponsible shooters being charged and paying fines. I would rather push for increasing the fines if needed to cover the cost of enforcement.

 

[Member 34319]

Then the warnings have to stop. They are out there giving warnings but don't have the funds to pay for patrolling shooting sites? ... and the problem is still growing to the point were having this discussion of concern of closures. They need to issue citations.

This is just like gun control, we need to enforce the current laws before adding new laws. I don't think I can support requiring responsible shooters to pay and obtain permits until I see the irresponsible shooters being charged and paying fines. I would rather push for increasing the fines if needed to cover the cost of enforcement.

That's exactly right.

I would like to see increased revenue though, as well. I think the forest department would too.

It could fund things like trash cans at shooting lanes. Maybe even more lanes. Ideally even better enforcement options.

That's my main reasoning behind the idea for the permits. Raising money.

 

[RVTECH]

I don't think I can support requiring responsible shooters to pay and obtain permits until I see the irresponsible shooters being charged and paying fines.

This whole notion of a permit system then hoping for increased LE presence to hand out citations might have some effect in areas of highly populated shooting areas such as this 'Brown's Camp' but over here on the East side shooting areas are nearly unlimited with only a few that seem to be used with any regularity. I can remember how many times in the last 10 years of shooting I have seen LEOs pull up to where I was - twice. Over here I think there would be more people with permits than would be getting cited for anything. I'll side with the idea of enforcing the current laws before creating any new ones.

 

[RVTECH]

It could fund things like trash cans at shooting lanes. Maybe even more lanes. Ideally even better enforcement options.

Some of the Pittman–Robertson Act revenue should be used to cover this.

 

[Member 34319]

This whole notion of a permit system then hoping for increased LE presence to hand out citations might have some effect in areas of highly populated shooting areas such as this 'Brown's Camp' but over here on the East side shooting areas are nearly unlimited with only a few that seem to be used with any regularity. I can remember how many times in the last 10 years of shooting I have seen LEOs pull up to where I was - twice. Over here I think there would be more people with permits than would be getting cited for anything. I'll side with the idea of enforcing the current laws before creating any new ones.

Think about what you just wrote.

If you have a plethora of shooters paying a 50 dollar permit in a sizable area. Say 1000 people get them. That is 50,000 in revenue alone. Sounds like a reasonable salary for an additional patrol officer. Imagine if 6000 permits were issued? Think that could afford better things than the current twice a year visit?

Ever wonder how much revenue is brought in from western deer rifle tags alone each year?

Again guys, I'm not trying to poop in your Cheerios, just trying to getting the brain juices flowing.

Currently, most recreational activities in the forest either have large donor systems in place, or create some sort of revenue from permit sales or enforcement fines.

We literally don't have much.

So when between a rock and a hard place, these departments are tight on funds and resources as is. Demanding they simply just do it with what they have isn't going to work. There is a growing amount of recreational shooters using the woods. There is no growth for our agencies.