Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch

[JRuby]

If he doesn't legally own it - he doesn't own it.

 

[Dunerunner]

Does Bundy have a title or a deed to the property - if not to me he is nothing more than a squatter. To me he wants to control of a piece of property that he has no legal right to just because he and his family has had the privilege of using it for decades does not mean he has the right to use it forever. Using armed force to take over property that does belong to you is stealing in my opinion.

I found this statement historically interesting....

Statement from Shirlee Bundy- "I have had people ask me to explain my dad's stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the survival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. These rights to the land use is called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the bureau of land management. They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repaires and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these money's against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they're own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penence he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren't doing their job. He quit paying the BLM but, tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes. In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn't work, they used the indangered species card. You've already heard about the desert tortis. Well that didn't work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now their desperate. It's come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the constitution of the United States of America. Now you may be saying," how sad, but what does this have to do with me?" Well, I'll tell you. They will get rid of Cliven Bundy, the last man standing on the Bunkerville allotment and then they will close all the roads so no one can ever go on it again. Next, it's Utah's turn. Mark my words, Utah is next. Then there's the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn't paid them, those cattle do belong to him. Regardless where they are they are my fathers property. His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even exsisted. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad's signature on it. They think they can take them over two boarders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfeild Aucion and sell them. All with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are? Well, this is it in a nut shell. Thanks"

 

[JRuby]

There should be a paper trail to prove he has grazing rights. If he does as stated the question becomes what type of agreement was it - a 99 year lease for example, doesnt mean he owns if after 99 years. - I don't know what the agreement was. If it is a preemptive right to property that only means that he has first right to buy the property if it comes up for sale - not that Bundy actually owns it currently. I however feel that regardless of what the money is being used for by the BLM - Bundy has no right to stop paying it. If he uses the property and started paying fees for the grazing he needs to continue as he a greed to it at one time and as he doesn't own it he is not meeting his obligations..

 

[Oregonhunter5]

Hey ruby, your point is correct. Kind of. There's a lot to this story.
The overriding thing here is,,, the government has taken to much from a guy with a backbone. So, this is his solution. If we all did the same, things would be much better around here....

 

[Oregonhunter5]

There should be a paper trail to prove he has grazing rights. If he does as stated the question becomes what type of agreement was it - a 99 year lease for example, doesnt mean he owns if after 99 years. - I don't know what the agreement was. If it is a preemptive right to property that only means that he has first right to buy the property if it comes up for sale - not that Bundy actually owns it currently. I however feel that regardless of what the money is being used for by the BLM - Bundy has no right to stop paying it. If he uses the property and started paying fees for the grazing he needs to continue as he a greed to it at one time and as he doesn't own it he is not meeting his obligations..

Since when has the government met our obligations lately?

 

[JRuby]

So your saying two wrongs make it ok?

 

[JRuby]

It is my understanding that property that he outright owns no one is trying to take away - only property that he does not out right own. I support property rights for all entities. However what you don't own and can't prove ownership to in a court of law you do not own and do not control. Let the courts decide. This has been going on for over 21 years ( 1993) seems its time this came to a head.

 

[willseeker]

So your saying two wrongs make it ok?

Ruby you're arguing/discussing the wrong end of the problem.
This transcends turtle vs. cattle, red vs. blue, lib vs. consv, etc…it has to do with the selling off of American sovereignty!
You're argument as to whether Bundys' eminent domain stance is applicable and legal, is a moot point.
When hired thugs invade a mans livelihood (and I doubt he's rich) with guns, armor and threats, it becomes a constitutional argument!
Will

 

[willseeker]

Of course, we set precedent when invaders took the land from indians a couple hundred years ago.
Aren't you a bit tired of this governments slow dismantling of the constitution?

 

[JRuby]

I do agree with that sentiment except:
Bundy does not own that property as I understand it
Bundy has stopped paying for his right to use that property
This has been going on as I understand it since 1993
Bundy doesn't recognize that there is a federal government and that there is such thing as federally owned property.

Since when did taking and using something that doesn't belong to you become dismantling of the constitution?

I think the government was wrong for taking the cattle. I think Bundy is wrong for the above stated reasons. Let the courts decide this.

 

[Dunerunner]

When my apartment needed a new dishwasher I bought one and had it installed after asking the owner for three months to do it without any response. I withheld that cost from the rent. I also withheld costs to repair the central air conditioning system (if you could call it that). I feel that if BLM (an entity of the government that didn't even exist in 1876) was not meeting it's obligations to Bundy, then he is justified in withholding those amounts that offset his expenditures to fence, develop roads and watering systems for his herds. BLM refers to land management and their efforts are supposed to be on our behalf, not for the special interests of some politician.

BLM doesn't own the land, it manages it for the State and County. Makes me wonder why the County Commissioners agreed to sell the land appraised at over $38 million to a Chinese Energy Company for $4.5 million. A company that was recruited by Reid in 2011 during a trip to China on our dime.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831

This whole thing smells to me, guess I'm weird.

 

[Dunerunner]

Found this report interesting... The Bunkerville Project: Glencore Xtrata & government owned gold mines... http://intellihub.com/bunkerville-project-glencore-xtrata-government-owned-gold-mines/

 

[AMProducts]

I realize that few people on here have had the pleasure of dealing with with land use and ranch issues...

Also, keep the airheads like baldwin, and the infowhores crowd out of this, they're morons and really add nothing to this.

In many cases people will have "leases" on public property, these can be for cattle grazing, mineral exploration, water etc. There are a wide variety of these. However as the letter stated, BLM and other federal agencies decided to "step in" and "help manage", for everyone except the federal government this has been a disaster. The government will step in to "manage endangered species" on leased land... and then bill the lease holder for the "management fee" which is usually insanely high, up to hundreds of thousands per year. Funny thing is those endangered species have a habit of leaving the property after that happens.. strange I know.

The federal government is completely overplaying it's hand here trying to maintain it's little fiefdom of management fees for nothing. Problem is, a bunch of people trying to turn this into a gun rights does nothing but give the government some legitimacy in terms of "we needed armored vehicles, to overwhelm these militia nutbags". So if you're going to show up, leave the guns at home, bring a water bottle and drum. Police always look like jerks when they drive over a drum circle in an APC, and usually get their asses handed to them later in court.

 

[xlsbob]

Unless I missed something the guy stopped paying for the right to graze cattle on property he didnt own. To simplify it, it's no different than not paying rent on the house you live in, no rent payment, no more get to live there. If you have more cattle than you can support on your own land you pay to graze them somewhere else, whether it's your neighbor or the government.

 

[JRuby]

Found this report interesting... The Bunkerville Project: Glencore Xtrata & government owned gold mines... http://intellihub.com/bunkerville-project-glencore-xtrata-government-owned-gold-mines/

Seems like it always about money - was anything done illegally by the feds, ( besides the cattle rustling)?.

 

[AMProducts]

Unless I missed something the guy stopped paying for the right to graze cattle on property he didnt own. To simplify it, it's no different than not paying rent on the house you live in, no rent payment, no more get to live there. If you have more cattle than you can support on your own land you pay to graze them somewhere else, whether it's your neighbor or the government.

Sorta, but not exactly... it's more like if after grazing your cows on a piece of property that you had one legal agreement with the neighbor. Then neighbor changes the deal and says he will do things to help if you pay him, so you pay him, and for a while he holds up his end of the deal. Then he stops doing anything to help and starts making a nuisance of himself and demanding more money. The problem is, he can't just boot you off, because he already took money on the initial deal. This is the typical trail of broken promises the government is known for. First they needed income taxes to pay for WWI, next thing you know they were using that money to pay for welfare programs, more wars, more welfare programs, and were taking a huge chunk of that money and burning it up in bureaucracy. Government is much like bacteria in a petri dish, it will grow until it covers all of the agar in the dish, whether it needs to or not, and once it has consumed all of that resource, it will look for more.

 

[JRuby]

My question was this legal agreement for a unlimited number of years or was there an actual time limit on the agreement?

 

[AMProducts]

Back in the day, there was typically no time limit on the lease, and it was transferable. There are a huge number of mining claims that even though no mining has happened on them in 50 or more years are still covered under patent claim. A few friends I know have bought these properties as they are usually quite remote, and don't have the same encumberances as other types of property in these areas.

 

[Mike Honcho]

Ruby you're arguing/discussing the wrong end of the problem.
This transcends turtle vs. cattle, red vs. blue, lib vs. consv, etc…it has to do with the selling off of American sovereignty!
You're argument as to whether Bundys' eminent domain stance is applicable and legal, is a moot point.
When hired thugs invade a mans livelihood (and I doubt he's rich) with guns, armor and threats, it becomes a constitutional argument!
Will

This x1000, I guess if you don't/refuse to pay taxes they everyone would be alright with 200 armed and geared up IRS Agents blocking off roads to your house, setting up first amendment zones and pushing down pregnant woman and cancer survivors and implementing no fly zones over your house and spending 3 times as much money as than what is owed in order to get their money, in the name of "justice" and getting "whats theirs."

As far as overgrazing crowd goes, nobody has more of a interest in keeping that land prime than Bundy, if ranchers keep getting the shaft as far as land usage (remember the BLM said he needed to reduce his herd to a 150 in order to continue grazing) what is that going to do to the food supply when ranchers give up on raising beef, they cant go purchase more land because the fed govt owns most of it.

This is a rights and liberty issue not a grazing issue at this point, and I suspect that this was never a grazing issue but a land grab to build a solar facility. If anyone thinks the Federal govt has the peoples best interest in mind, they need to have their heads checked.

 

[JRuby]

This x1000, I guess if you don't/refuse to pay taxes they everyone would be alright with 200 armed and geared up IRS Agents blocking off roads to your house, setting up first amendment zones and pushing down pregnant woman and cancer survivors and implementing no fly zones over your house and spending 3 times as much money as than what is owed in order to get their money, in the name of "justice" and getting "whats theirs."
.

Nah - you should be able to refuse to pay taxes the rest of your life, continue to milk the system and become a folk hero for being a dead beat

Actually both scenarios are over the top.