Match grade reloading for an AR-10

[Darce]

Good Morning!!!

I have been reloading for only about 3-4 years, I have invested in some great presses that let me produce a great product quickly and efficiently.

I have recently invested in a beautiful match grade AR-10 (.308) and have decided I only want to shoot match grade ammo out of it. Sooooo I've invested in a single stage press with some high end tools to help me build a great round. As I've been looking and asking around ive noticing you can gauge and adjust just about everything on a round to make it perfect for ones chamber.

With it not being a bolt action rifle I was wondering; at what point am I wasting my time and money on tools and gauges?

- Neck wall thickness gauge
- adjusting tool
-concentricity gauge/tool

Will I see much of a difference with bump sizing over full sizing? (From what I've read, I would have a high % of running into failure to feed issues if I only neck size)

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

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[Member 5605]

More accuracy will come from powder load, COAL, proper headspace and your precision with same volume brass with consistent crimp.

Concentric gauges, neck trimmers will get you somewhere but only once you have exhausted current tweaks.

With that all said, your rifle barrel will probably have more to do with accuracy than any of the above comments.

You cannot neck size, .005" will cause a failure to go into battery... had that on 200 rounds I made.

You can measure headspace and set it back .002-3" smaller than your rifles chamber. I run mine in bolt .005" under for precision rounds, hunting is a little larger gap. Getting a OAL gauge will also help so you can find maximum length for your rifle with each bullet. .025" off lands is what I run and it's too long for the magazine.

Darn that semi auto crimping...

@Darce, your thread is moved here... May be more applicable to reloading than rifle specific..

 

[Darce]

Thank you for your help

 

[MrElectric03]

What kind of range are you looking at shooting?

 

[Steve M]

You might want to grab a copy of "Top-Grade Ammo" and read up on it. Zediker Publishing

 

[ron]

Loading for a gas gun is different than for a bolt. I reload match grade ammo
for my M1A. You can do it!! Full length size your cases. RCBS precision
Mic I use to adjust the sizing die. By adjusting the sizing die you are
bringing down the case shoulder to spec. Not over or under sizing. Otherwise
it is pure quess work. I like my Dillon 550 for the reason once you have
adjusted your dies you do not have to readjust every time as in a single
stage press. RCBS are good dies. Components are important.
Bullet choice is the most important. Depending on your rifle's twist rate?
168 SMK is THE standard of match bullets. Good starting point to work from.
All the same and properly prepped brass. I like Winchester. Lapua is the
best but very $$$. A lot of good powders for the 308. Good luck have fun.
RCBS Precision Mic 308 Winchester

 

[ron]

I reload 223, 308 and 30/06 for semi auto rifles. I never crimp.
1,000 plus rounds a year. Never an issue. Properly size the
case and you will have no problems.

 

[Darce]

What kind of range are you looking at shooting?

Paper. All positions

 

[Darce]

Thanks for the info. It is much appreciated.

 

[Member 5605]

I reload 223, 308 and 30/06 for semi auto rifles. I never crimp.
1,000 plus rounds a year. Never an issue. Properly size the
case and you will have no problems.

So, I'm curious since you don't crimp...

Are you running .305" (or smaller?) for neck tension on the .30 Cals? Since I load for bolt only I don't worry about crimp but you don't have any issues with bullets walking from slamming home into battery? I guess one could find the perfect tension that allows no crimp but also keeps bullet seated where it's supposed to be.

Currently: Bolt .223/.308/soon .300WM/

You mentioned not setting dies every time you load in a single stage...

Other options would be a Lee Breechlock, Hornady collet press as well. (I'm a fan of set it once and don't adjust it except to verify).

 

[Steve M]

Neck tension is all that hols the bullets in for my M1A and it have yet to find bullets walking on me.

You don't have to set up the die every time for a single stage press unless you move the lock ring or adjust the die. I do it all the time.

 

[ron]

Standard full length RCBS dies. I reload for match shooting mostly
ARs. Different brass and bullet combos not crimping. No problems
with bullets being pushed back. Most of the competitors I talk to
do not crimp also. I have several times done the experiment with
identical loads only difference is crimp or no crimp. Results
always was no crimp considerably better groups!

 

[Darce]

Best bullet out there168-175, that won't break the bank. 18" barrel 1:10 twist.
What powders are you using that is getting you 2650-2700 ftps without over pressuring the chamber?

 

[Goosebrown]

Lapua brass is not expensive as you are going to get 5-10 more reloading than anything else. Lake City is good too.

Lapua wins objectively because their interior volume is VERY uniform. Brass that is not has higher and lower pressure given the same powder charge and thus different vertical impact points.

Buy Lapua once and save your self headaches.

 

[CV-66]

I've known Ron for a long time and his advice on reloading is very sound and his shooting scores in high power competition are proof of that.

Allow me to premise what follows with the statement that, I have a lot more time on my hands than I know what to do with. I like to experiment and have blown an awful lot of money over the years trying a lot of different things. No matter what you do or how much time you spend on brass prep just remember one thing. The brass hounds who abscond with your cases are going to really appreciate all the effort you put into that preparation.

In addition to the Sierra 168 you might also try (for 200-yard) xx grains of H-322 in the .308 behind a 150-grain MatchKing (see Hodgdons website).


I full length resize, decap, clean the primer pocket, swage it's crimp (if present), uniform the primer pocket with Sinclairs non-adjustable tool, uniform the flash hole with an appropriate sized drill, deburr the flash hole, trim case to length, deburr and chamfer the case mouth.

Overall what I've seen from doing this is a reduction in group size. Fractions here fractions there. Even tried sorting brass by weight but when I did that what I found wasn't a reduction in size of the individual groups. Rather, the placement on the target of these two ten shot groups were different. Cases sorted by weight 175+-2gr were in the x-ring but 170+-2 were located in the ten ring at 5 o'clock. Both ten-shot groups were the same size but in different locations. Mixing the two lots of different case weights slightly increased the overall size of the group but all twenty were still in the x/ten ring (an oblong hole stretching from the x toward the five o'clock). I'm not sold on the idea of sorting brass for auto ejecting rifles in part because of the aforementioned brass hounds but also because my time is worth money. Bolt action rifle a different story though.

When seating the bullet you must ensure it is started into the case mouth straight - otherwise it can distort the case neck during the seating process creating a large amount of run-out which you can measure with your concentricity tool. That ain't good for accuracy. I've been using Redding (and older RCBS) dies because they accept a carbide expander which eliminates neck stretching/deformation. Their competition seating die design ensures straight inline seating.

Regardless the die brands used my advice is to have a case fully inserted into the die with the ram up fully, then tighten your lock ring. On progressives if you look at the removable tool heads you'll usually see there is some slop in their fitment. They almost always exhibit some movement in the up/down and side-to-side. This "floating" aids in the alignment of those rotating cases, with the dies in the various stations. Lee Precision uses O-rings on their lock rings as a means of "floating" and they also provide friction to keep the nut from loosening. You should have a case in every station with the ram up fully, then tighten all lock rings.

I tried inside neck reaming on the brass for two of my more accurate guns; a 40x (308) and Model 70 (22/250) but never realized any accuracy benefit. Although they're both 1/2 MOA guns, the effort just didn't take. I figured if it doesn't help them then it probably won't help an AR. Most standard and match-grade service rifle chambers are fairly generous to facilitate proper feeding and function. The ensuing radial stretching and subsequent sizing will split the necks quickly due to thinning. It might shave some fraction of an inch off your groups though, so if you have the tools (as I do) and the time by all means try it and share your results with us.

DO NOT NECK SIZE ONLY (for semi-autos). That's a disaster waiting to happen. You might get it to work in your gun, but if someone ever chambers one of those rounds in a different gun without your knowledge, regardless by accident or oversight the chance of out-of-battery and slam fire is high! I'm not sure what barrel you have but military chambers and sporting semiautomatic rifles have greater radial body clearance. Small base dies reduce more than is usually needed and expand upon firing. Repeating this creates overworked brass and short case life. Use small base once (if at all). In an AR rifle the bolt slamming home on a partially sized case can wedge it with sufficient force to prevent case extraction upon firing. Combined with a high primer may and you may get a slam-fire.

Use primers with "heavy" cups, such as the Federal 205, CCI 41, CCI 34, CCI 450 or WSR. The 5.56mm military primer and current commercial small rifle heavy-cup primers have base metal thicknesses about .024 to .0255 inch. Standard small rifle primers, like the Remington 6-1/2, Federal 200 or the old .30 carbine primer have base metal thicknesses about .020 inch and are more sensitive.

Out-of-battery fire with AR style rifles are rare. Placing the cartridge directly into the chamber then seating the bolt is common practice in high power slow fire shooting. Allowing the bolt to slam home on a cartridge that is fully inserted into the chamber poses a possibility of a slam-fire. Riding the bolt home slowly and seating may result in it not rotating fully into battery. It's always best to have the bolt strip the from the magazine.

your for the second..

 

[Darce]

That was an amazing write up, thank you so much for taking the time to break it down.

Thank you everyone and more is always welcome. I was concerned about Norma BS that comes with forms. Thank you everyone for the information