M16 / M4 vs AR15

[JRuby]

I have none to my name and I hope it stays that way.

 

[titsonritz]

From Wiki

Confirmed kills
During the Vietnam War, Hathcock had 93 confirmed kills of North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong personnel.[4] In the Vietnam War, kills had to be confirmed by an acting third party, who had to be an officer, besides the sniper's spotter. Snipers often did not have an acting third party present, making confirmation difficult, especially if the target was behind enemy lines, as was usually the case.

Hathcock estimated that he had killed between 300 and 400 enemy personnel during his time in Vietnam

now your source

I knew a professor that required appendix with sourced material and would automatically fail a paper if Wiki was that source.

The interviewer asks the question at about the 1:00 mark (for some reason the video won't embed but here is a link) :
Chris Kyle: American Sniper | 10 Questions | TIME

And a couple other sources:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ipers-becoming-pop-culture-hit-flna6C10791983

https://www.quora.com/What-exactly-...-a-fellow-solider-have-to-witness-the-killing

 

[Andy54Hawken]

When I was in the business of tracking down and engaging the enemy ...as a sniper...

We did not need a officer to be present to make a confirmed kill.
Any action was noted in our log and After Action Reports...
Often we operated far forward of friendly lines or even behind enemy lines....and with only 4-6 man teams...often with only a E-5 or E-6 as the highest rank present , many times only a E-4 Specialist ...
No officers needed or required.
Many times we could not physically "confirm" the kill , due to the tactical situation...

Granted I was not a Marine nor in Vietnam...so at different times and places , maybe different requirements...?

On a personal note .... I never kept "score" on what or who I hit , it was just noted in the log or report and then I carried on....
Andy

 

[Mark W.]

OK how about the words of an Oregon Sniper in Vietnam?

from this page of an article written about

A Sniper at Peace With His Duties Chuck Mawhinney

No other Marine sniper in Vietnam had more confirmed kills of Viet Cong and North Vietnamese Army regulars than Mawhinney.

"
Near the An Hoa base outside Da Nang, he caught a platoon of North Vietnamese Army regulars crossing a stream. He hit 16 with head shots with an M-14, which he often carried in addition to his bolt-action.

The 16 were listed only as probable kills because no officer was there to see their lifeless bodies float by and there was no chance to search the bodies."

Army is different then Marine and EVERYTHING is different after Vietnam.

The whole article on Mawhinney

A Sniper at Peace With His Duties

 

[wired]

Cite the Marine corps regs requiring an officers confirmation.

 

[Pandaz3]

There are not enough thing in this thread to argue over so let me throw out another one that seems close enough to the spirit of the thread. I Saw this quote earlier.. Do not get me wrong I would love to own a Wilson anything, I'm not attacking Wilson. Similar statements have been made by many others, but I do not get it.

"The Wilson Combat BILLet-AR receiver was engineered from the ground up to address structural design weaknesses in standard USGI lower receivers and enhance overall tolerances."

It is specifically the 'structural design weaknesses in standard USGI lower receivers' that I am unclear on. Yes some early on copies could have been guilty, but the MilSpec's (Military Specification's) do change from time to time as the Ordinance Corps or whoever is in charge sees a problem or requirements change.

I will go out on a limb and ask if anyone has seen a recent (Last twenty years) AR Receiver failure. I have not.

 

[wired]

I will go out on a limb and ask if anyone has seen a recent (Last twenty years) AR Receiver failure. I have not.

Just a carbon 15. Those pieces of garbage should never have hit the market. Milspc AR-15 aluminum...not a chance. AR's are man accessories and people spend obscene amounts of money accessorizing them with doodads, widgets and other goofy crap.

 

[Boboclown]

Polymer and magnesium AR lowers have had failures.

 

[Goosebrown]

Wiki's wrong. Imagine that. ANYONE can write or edit Wikipedia and put in whatever fact free garbage they want.

Other than after action reports there is no "confirmed kills" form that gets filled out and recorded as such and nothing like that enters personnel files. There is no requirement an officer witness anything for it to be recorded as an official "confirmed kill". Your'e asking people to prove a negative. It doesn't exist. A sniper could essentially make up any number he wanted to sell his story if he so chose and there is no way to prove or disprove it.

Hathcock was not the most prolific Marine sniper in Vietnam BTW.


Truths and myths about sniper kills

"So a so-called "confirmed kill" is when a sniper self-reports (be it in after-action reports or some other fashion, since there aren't always after-action reports of this nature) that they killed a target and some second person (including a spotter, or another soldier, or a civilian, etc) witnessed the killing. It's a term without any official status, and without any apparent confirmation beyond the self-report of the sniper."

Reporting requirements can and do change. Two people doing the same thing at different times have different experiences and rules. Remember in Vietnam there was a HUGE premium on body counts that is not there afterward.

 

[wired]

Reporting requirements can and do change. Two people doing the same thing at different times have different experiences and rules. Remember in Vietnam there was a HUGE premium on body counts that is not there afterward.

I have no doubt that some unit or area commanders didnt trust their Marines body counts and probably did send officers out into the bush to confirm body counts in the days of ear garlands and bad times had by all. It was never a Marine Corp policy though and it certainly wasn't an official Army policy.

 

[Pandaz3]

In the 199th Light Infantry Brigade in '66-'67 and again in the 1st Inf Div '69-'70 we did give a body count, but it was not confirmed by a second source. There might have been a Company Commander who had a incorrect count, but since I have seen a few and heard what was reported, I think they were pretty accurate. Certainly there was no mistake about our casualties.

 

[EPS]

CERBERUS GROUP .witch means the three headed dog that gaurds the gates to the under world to keep the monsters from getting out .
AWESOM LOL

 

[EPS]

Oh Im coming to one of your classes just because of that name lol

 

[Boboclown]

CERBERUS GROUP .witch means the three headed dog that gaurds the gates to the under world to keep the monsters from getting out .
AWESOM LOL

Oh Im coming to one of your classes just because of that name lol

Go home EPS, you're drunk.

 

[EPS]

Go home @EPS you're drunk.

I am home CLOWN

 

[Boboclown]

I am home CLOWN

Cerberus Training Group - New July Classes Added by Request

Not quite.

 

[EPS]

And yes im drunk HEHEE what else is new

 

[Pandaz3]

I am home CLOWN

So you have been relegated to drink at home alone.... Watcha drinking?

 

[EPS]

Look up the definition of the three headed dog CERBERUS GROUP

 

[EPS]

So you have been relegated to drink at home alone.... Watcha drinking?

Oh I only drink at home these days old picture but same last week as this week LOL