M16 / M4 vs AR15

[titsonritz]

Ammo is lighter, recoil is easier to manage for the average person. You can see why the change was going to happen. The United States wasn't the first with the idea of an intermediate cartridge. The British had the .280 British (less recoil than .303 British and .30-06), and the Belgians designed their FAL around it (after the British asked them to), but when FN was trying to enter it in the competition for the United States, the U.S said they won't look at it unless it was chambered in 7.62 NATO.

Ironically, the United States later did go to an intermediate cartridge, while the rest of NATO was stuck with 7.62 NATO for a relatively long time. Talk about hypocrisy!

That was a choke right there, IMO FWIW, 6.5mm-7mm are the sweet spot in caliber performance. The SD and advantages of are just undeniable.

 

[Mark W.]

Carlos Hathcock carried a Winchester model 70 in 30-06 A bolt action rifle with a 8X scope on it and he had no trouble surviving the Vietnam war with 93 confirmed kills and 300-400 kills realistically (a confirmed kill must be witnessed by an officer not the snipers spotter)

To say that going into combat with a semi auto is somehow going to get you killed is the statement of an uninformed ding dong. IMHO

 

[Ura-Ki]

Personally, I would like to see the Military adopt a large bore, medium range midde length Carbine, something like a modern .45 Colt @rifle specs or almost .45/70! That would be the optimum tool based on intermediate range and maximum stoppng power! I know the Navy played with tools like that and had great succes with it, but for some strange reason ( probably political) it never went more mainstream! This combined with a more effective pistol caliber then 9mm would certainly be a move in the right direction. When we had the 10mm auto Delta Elites, we were king of the world for that short span of time, and for those of us that choice a back up, usually .357 or .44 mag wheelguns, that was a nice comforting thought having a few speed loaders loaded up with good stuff!

 

[Boboclown]

Shooting the EM-2 in .280 British A video of Ian shooting the EM-2 in .280 British. There were some malfunctions, but its a rifle over 60+ years that has been shot a lot.

.280 wasn't as powerful as 7.62 NATO, which is why the U.S didn't want it. But it was a decent intermediate cartridge. Still find it funny they said no to an intermediate round then later changed their minds and made one.

Personally, I would like to see the Military adopt a large bore, medium range midde length Carbine, something like a modern .45 Colt @rifle specs or almost .45/70! That would be the optimum tool based on intermediate range and maximum stoppng power! I know the Navy played with tools like that and had great succes with it, but for some strange reason ( probably political) it never went more mainstream! This combined with a more effective pistol caliber then 9mm would certainly be a move in the right direction. When we had the 10mm auto Delta Elites, we were king of the world for that short span of time, and for those of us that choice a back up, usually .357 or .44 mag wheelguns, that was a nice comforting thought having a few speed loaders loaded up with good stuff!

Training. Would require more training to get people used to stuff with more recoil. More training means more money. They don't want that.

 

[wired]

Carlos Hathcock carried a Winchester model 70 in 30-06 A bolt action rifle with a 8X scope on it and he had no trouble surviving the Vietnam war with 93 confirmed kills and 300-400 kills realistically (a confirmed kill must be witnessed by an officer not the snipers spotter)

To say that going into combat with a semi auto is somehow going to get you killed is the statement of an uninformed ding dong. IMHO

Thats not true. When an after action report is filled out it can be any witness confirming a snipers actions. Doesnt have to be an officer . It can be a spotter or really any other soldier, marine etc.

The Army at least does not keep official "confirmed kill" records. Snipers can and some do keep their own tally but its not something that gets recorded in their personnel records. After action reports get filed in the Indiana Jones Warehouse.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

When an after action report is filled out it can be any witness confirming a snipers actions. Doesnt have to be an officer . It can be a spotter or really any other soldier, marine etc.

The Army at least does not keep official "confirmed kill" records.

This is how it worked when I was doing that job in the Army...and please no asking of : " How many...?"
Thank you.
Andy

 

[Ura-Ki]

Carlos Hathcock carried a Winchester model 70 in 30-06 A bolt action rifle with a 8X scope on it and he had no trouble surviving the Vietnam war with 93 confirmed kills and 300-400 kills realistically (a confirmed kill must be witnessed by an officer not the snipers spotter)

To say that going into combat with a semi auto is somehow going to get you killed is the statement of an uninformed ding dong. IMHO

Look back at both World Wars, the .30/06 bolt actions proved to be very effective, and the training to use them properly not only saved a lot of lives, but ended a much higher percentage of the enemies per rounds expended! Even against a determined fanatical enemy in the Pacific, the Marines with their 1903 Springfields were not at a disadvantage! And even better was when units were equippd and trained with the Garand! In both wars, this is where the M1911 really earned it's stripes as well! One if the few lessons well learned by our military leader's, properly trained and equippd forces do much better with greater efficiency. Nam was another hard learned lesson, the thoughts and policies of of political hacks do not and should not be allowed to participate in the war fighting of rbise sent down range to actually so the fighting! My friends and brothers who had to fight that war were really tossed under the bus, and 58000 Americans now lie at rest for those faults! That we continue to fight the same type of war with the same type of failings is proof enough that we don' care about the guys and girls sent down range, we want company "A" to win a contract to build the same krap we have been building since the early 60s! And expect things to improve despite this!

 

[Boboclown]

Nam was another hard learned lesson, the thoughts and policies of of political hacks do not and should not be allowed to participate in the war fighting of rbise sent down range to actually so the fighting! My friends and brothers who had to fight that war were really tossed under the bus, and 58000 Americans now lie at rest for those faults!

Trial by fire is the worst way to introduce a new weapon... Even worse is trying to cheap out by cutting out the essentials that would have kept a new design running.

the .30/06 bolt actions proved to be very effective

I like my .30-06... Though it needs a German post reticle. Its funny, you look at scopes way back then and then look at them now... People are spoiled when they say they need a variable 3-9x to shoot at 600 yards! People used 4x scopes, with just basic reticles that would be great on hunting rifles, and did well! One of the longest shots, 1,200 yards, happened in the civil war. I don't think their scopes had all the fancy features the scopes have these days.

 

[titsonritz]

(a confirmed kill must be witnessed by an officer not the snipers spotter

Ah, no!!

 

[Diamondback]

After action reports get filed in the Indiana Jones Warehouse.

Have a Like and a cookie, just for this line alone...

 

[Mark W.]

Ah, no!!

From Wiki

Confirmed kills
During the Vietnam War, Hathcock had 93 confirmed kills of North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong personnel.[4] In the Vietnam War, kills had to be confirmed by an acting third party, who had to be an officer, besides the sniper's spotter. Snipers often did not have an acting third party present, making confirmation difficult, especially if the target was behind enemy lines, as was usually the case.

Hathcock estimated that he had killed between 300 and 400 enemy personnel during his time in Vietnam

now your source

 

[wired]

Wiki's wrong. Imagine that. ANYONE can write or edit Wikipedia and put in whatever fact free garbage they want.

Other than after action reports there is no "confirmed kills" form that gets filled out and recorded as such and nothing like that enters personnel files. There is no requirement an officer witness anything for it to be recorded as an official "confirmed kill". Your'e asking people to prove a negative. It doesn't exist. A sniper could essentially make up any number he wanted to sell his story if he so chose and there is no way to prove or disprove it.

Hathcock was not the most prolific Marine sniper in Vietnam BTW.


Truths and myths about sniper kills

"So a so-called "confirmed kill" is when a sniper self-reports (be it in after-action reports or some other fashion, since there aren't always after-action reports of this nature) that they killed a target and some second person (including a spotter, or another soldier, or a civilian, etc) witnessed the killing. It's a term without any official status, and without any apparent confirmation beyond the self-report of the sniper."

 

[pharmseller]

When people refer to the Las Vegas shooter I am reminded of Breaking Bad:

Mythbusters did a segment and proved it to be viable.





P

 

[wired]

When people refer to the Las Vegas shooter I am reminded of Breaking Bad:

Mythbusters did a segment and proved it to be viable.





P

If that old piece of crap M60 I had in the Army would have thrown out 1/10th that much lead before jamming up I'd have been happy.

 

[pharmseller]

Maybe he paid more for a good one.

P

 

[EPS]

Carlos Hathcock carried a Winchester model 70 in 30-06 A bolt action rifle with a 8X scope on it and he had no trouble surviving the Vietnam war with 93 confirmed kills and 300-400 kills realistically (a confirmed kill must be witnessed by an officer not the snipers spotter)

To say that going into combat with a semi auto is somehow going to get you killed is the statement of an uninformed ding dong. IMHO

If this was true .
Then there would have had to be a Officer present for all of Chris Kyle shoots .
What was there over 300

 

[wired]

If this was true .
Then there would have had to be a Officer present for all of Chris Kyle shoots .
What was there over 300

According to Kyle and backed up by unnamed Navy sources ( for what thats worth) it was closer to 160.

 

[EPS]

According to Kyle and backed up by unnamed Navy sources ( for what thats worth) it was closer to 160.

I didn't know I just threw that out there I have heard so many numbers

 

[EPS]

255 but 160 confirm according to the book

 

[EPS]

Ask Mark Walburg how they confirmed all his
Lol .I believe he said you can't confirm all of them because they take place in spots .that you can't go confirm them HEHEE