National Lifetime gun bans for non-violent felons

[The Resister]

Is this supposed to replace the Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Nope. You have NO Constitution and the Bill of Rights were reduced to mere privileges by the United States Supreme Court. It is a document that demands our Rights OR the government cannot claim any jurisdiction over us.

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." An excerpt from the Declaration of Independence

WHEN the Biden Administration begins its final assault on the Right to keep and bear Arms, you had better argue something better than an amendment that has been reduced to a government regulated privilege - compliments of the United States Supreme Court. The charter is a revocation of consent and a reclamation of unalienable Rights.

 

[jrd541280]

Nope. You have NO Constitution and the Bill of Rights were reduced to mere privileges by the United States Supreme Court. It is a document that demands our Rights OR the government cannot claim any jurisdiction over us.

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." An excerpt from the Declaration of Independence

WHEN the Biden Administration begins its final assault on the Right to keep and bear Arms, you had better argue something better than an amendment that has been reduced to a government regulated privilege - compliments of the United States Supreme Court. The charter is a revocation of consent and a reclamation of unalienable Rights.

so what argument to you suggest, other than surrender?

 

[CamoDeafie]

so what argument to you suggest, other than surrender?

Do what the Founding Fathers did against the Crown.

 

[jrd541280]

last thing i wanna here is there is no constitution or bill of rights. it WAS written and SHALL be heard if need be.

 

[Ridge Walker]

Me - If you're going to set them free, then let them be equals.

Agreed. If they aren't safe enough for society to be able to vote or have a weapon to defend themselves, family, and community, then they should be in prison and not walking free. So if they complete their parole, full restoration of rights.

 

[The Resister]

so what argument to you suggest, other than surrender?

OMG. The first step is signing The Charter and Proclamation of the Rights of Man. Reclaim your unalienable Rights. That INCLUDES the Right to keep and bear Arms. Since the courts have mangled the Constitution beyond repair, you have to withdraw your consent to be ruled by a tyrannical government. There is no organization to join and so forth, so I'll leave you a couple of links from the only place I know of off the top of my head that can answer this for you:

THE CHARTER AND PROCLAMATION OF THE RIGHTS OF MAN | LibertyLobbyForum

In the next post is The Charter and Proclamation of the Rights of Man. I want to explain WHAT this is for you. This document is a demand that the government acknowledges our Rights and if th

libertarians.freeforums.net

https://libertarians.freeforums.net/thread/1513/charter-proclamation-rights-man

 

[The Resister]

Do what the Founding Fathers did against the Crown.

EXACTLY. The Charter and Proclamation of the Rights of Man awaits your support.

 

[The Resister]

last thing i wanna here is there is no constitution or bill of rights. it WAS written and SHALL be heard if need be.

To make a complicated story short, the United States Supreme Court illegally ratified the 14th Amendment and under false pretenses. The current holdings took your "Rights" (which were previously unalienable) and reduced them to mere privileges. Then in the Heller and McDonald the high Court makes sure you understand that your Right to keep and bear Arms is incorporated into the 14th Amendment. The 14th Amendment is about government granted privileges and immunities.

 

[The Heretic]

OMG. The first step is signing The Charter and Proclamation of the Rights of Man. Reclaim your unalienable Rights. That INCLUDES the Right to keep and bear Arms. Since the courts have mangled the Constitution beyond repair, you have to withdraw your consent to be ruled by a tyrannical government. There is no organization to join and so forth, so I'll leave you a couple of links from the only place I know of off the top of my head that can answer this for you:

THE CHARTER AND PROCLAMATION OF THE RIGHTS OF MAN | LibertyLobbyForum

In the next post is The Charter and Proclamation of the Rights of Man. I want to explain WHAT this is for you. This document is a demand that the government acknowledges our Rights and if th

libertarians.freeforums.net

https://libertarians.freeforums.net/thread/1513/charter-proclamation-rights-man

I don't need to sign anything to have Natural Rights. They are by definition Natural Rights. Putting them on a piece of paper doesn't give me any rights, I already have them. The US Constitution restricts the government from infringing some of my rights and tells the government that:

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

 

[The Resister]

I don't need to sign anything to have Natural Rights. They are by definition Natural Rights. Putting them on a piece of paper doesn't give me any rights, I already have them. The US Constitution restricts the government from infringing some of my rights and tells the government that:

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Yes, you do have to declare your Rights. When governments do not acknowledge your Rights, the people must refuse to give their consent to be governed by tyrants, especially in a de facto government. This principle held true with the Magna, Carta, the Scottish Declaration of Independence, and our own Declaration of Independence.

Amendments IX and X have been violated so many times that no court in America can enforce them. But, staying in the spirit of this board, the federal government says that you have an individual "right" (they then describe that "right" as a grant or permission from the government) to keep and bear arms. What kind of arms? The high Court left that door open and current legislation will criminalize the possession of most any kind of firearm you can name. Of course, the Heller and McDonald holdings reversed even standing United States Supreme Court holdings... but, I told you that we no longer have a Constitution. How we can stand for the United States Supreme Court reinterpreting their own decisions is way beyond my comprehension.

"If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed." George Washington, Farewell Address

Reinterpretations and restatements after the high Court has already ruled is NOT an amendment. It was the usurpation of power that destroyed the Constitution.

 

[The Heretic]

Signing a piece of paper (or online petition) won't force the government (especially not the SCOTUS, Congress or POTUS) to recognize our rights, not signing the declaration won't take away our rights either.

There is a difference between rights and the freedom to exercise our rights.

Unless one is advocating the overthrow of a government and willing/able to back that up with force, then the only venues for forcing a government to respect our rights (by allowing us the freedom to exercise them) are the courts and the ballot box. A piece of paper on some website isn't going to make much if any difference - the government will just ignore it, much more so than they often ignore the US Constitution which is much more binding.

I don't completely fault such efforts, but I question their effectiveness; the ballot box and the courts are more effective than the soap box at this point, especially when you already have people who agree with what is being said.

 

[Barefootdog]

Agreed. If they aren't safe enough for society to be able to vote or have a weapon to defend themselves, family, and community, then they should be in prison and not walking free. So if they complete their parole, full restoration of rights.

WADR It's more complicated than that.

Being a criminal and being incarcerated for criminal behavior are two different things.

A criminal paroled/released into society doesn't necessarily mean that person is any less of a criminal.

That's why recidivism is a "'thingie". ("Thingie" taken from the "Vegetable in the White House Dictionary", Pub 2021) .

Had a rental property in the Leaburg/Vida area. I took a chance. Made a time consuming/expensive mistake. A "paroled" (completed?) criminal came to me and said his family desperately needed a place to live. Begged to moved in. What followed was an education on how the criminal mind works. Prison had just produced a more cautious criminal. He went to all the meetings. Passed all the piss tests. But he was (and probably still is) the same criminal who went to prison. He just did different scams and flew under the radar.

Released from prison but still the same criminal view of and responses to living in the free world. Everyday living some scam. Big or small didn't matter. He wanted something then any/all lies, deceits and manipulation necessary were just business as usual. Wifie turned out to be a drunk. Ran off with her crack dealer. State took the kid and on and on. Always always...always somebody else's fault. Always the victim. It was like watching a state funded soap opera.

Always running a scam. Always telling and living the next lie. Always taking from somebody else. The POS did building repair/clean up work for property managers and unlicensed contracting. Ran a fishing guide service. Finally got rid of him and the POS women and kids. Only then did the neighbors come to me with the stories they wouldn't tell while the guy was in the house. Four or five people came to me wanting to know where is was. He owned a number of the locals money. Others he had their property. He had pretty believable BS skills. Last I heard the guy was living south of Springfield off Jasper Rd towards Fall Creek/Lowell.

A stylized Kumbaya view of criminality leads to making bad decisions.

He did know how to fish. Have to give him that.....

 

[Devneck]

WADR It's more complicated than that.

Being a criminal and being incarcerated for criminal behavior are two different things.

A criminal paroled/released into society doesn't necessarily mean that person is any less of a criminal.

That's why recidivism is a "'thingie". ("Thingie" taken from the "Vegetable in the White House Dictionary", Pub 2021) .

Had a rental property in the Leaburg/Vida area. I took a chance. Made a time consuming/expensive mistake. A "paroled" (completed?) criminal came to me and said his family desperately needed a place to live. Begged to moved in. What followed was an education on how the criminal mind works. Prison had just produced a more cautious criminal. He went to all the meetings. Passed all the piss tests. But he was (and probably still is) the same criminal who went to prison. He just did different scams and flew under the radar.

Released from prison but still the same criminal view of and responses to living in the free world. Everyday living some scam. Big or small didn't matter. He wanted something then any/all lies, deceits and manipulation necessary were just business as usual. Wifie turned out to be a drunk. Ran off with her crack dealer. State took the kid and on and on. Always always...always somebody else's fault. Always the victim. It was like watching a state funded soap opera.

Always running a scam. Always telling and living the next lie. Always taking from somebody else. The POS did building repair/clean up work for property managers and unlicensed contracting. Ran a fishing guide service. Finally got rid of him and the POS women and kids. Only then did the neighbors come to me with the stories they wouldn't tell while the guy was in the house. Four or five people came to me wanting to know where is was. He owned a number of the locals money. Others he had their property. He had pretty believable BS skills. Guess the guy is still around living south of Springfield off Jasper Rd towards Fall Creek/Lowell.

A stylized Kumbaya view of criminality leads to making bad decisions.

He did know how to fish. Have to give him that.....

It's unfair to assume that all people with a criminal history are like that guy, although I would venture a guess a significant enough number are.

Same way that assuming all who are released should be fully trusted and if they can't be trusted then keep them locked down or buried.

However, there should be a path for somebody who is reformed to prove themselves trustworthy again and be made whole.

Many states, Washington and Oregon included, do offer a pathway to prove yourself and have firearms rights restored after convictions. There are inconsistencies cross country though. Some states don't recognize restoration, sometimes the federal gov doesn't recognize restoration. Or the one that confuses me more than any, the misdemeanor dv lifetime federal ban where the doj says the states can restore but states don't recognize they took the 2a right leaving the individual in limbo with no path forward. There are states where a misdemeanor conviction is worse for 2a than a felony conviction.

 

[Barefootdog]

It's unfair to assume that all people with a criminal history are like that guy.................
.................
However, there should be a path for somebody who is reformed to prove themselves trustworthy again and be made whole.

..................

Very much agree on both points.

 

[The Resister]

Signing a piece of paper (or online petition) won't force the government (especially not the SCOTUS, Congress or POTUS) to recognize our rights, not signing the declaration won't take away our rights either.

There is a difference between rights and the freedom to exercise our rights.

Unless one is advocating the overthrow of a government and willing/able to back that up with force, then the only venues for forcing a government to respect our rights (by allowing us the freedom to exercise them) are the courts and the ballot box. A piece of paper on some website isn't going to make much if any difference - the government will just ignore it, much more so than they often ignore the US Constitution which is much more binding.

I don't completely fault such efforts, but I question their effectiveness; the ballot box and the courts are more effective than the soap box at this point, especially when you already have people who agree with what is being said.

First, and most importantly, the charter is not a petition. It is not a constitution nor a new plan for a new government. Signing onto the effort might not force the government to do anything... a point that was easily conceded AND dealt with in the second link regarding beyond the charter. You would be well served to actually read the material before making uninformed assessments.

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." Proverbs 18: 13

You have a legal obligation to put the government notice when the government is violating the law. You have a moral obligation to tell the government why you are not obeying tyrannical laws. The more people supporting the effort, the more that feel empowered to do more than run down to the polls and cast a vote. If you want to keep your firearms, you will support the charter. You are NOT ever going to win at the polls again. Between the fact that America is trending left AND the courts are allowing people to vote in one state, then set up shop and vote in another AND we're getting a million new naturalized citizens (plus Biden will allow undocumented people to vote), the overwhelming populace voting for Democrats and you are wasting your time if you really think voting is the magic elixir.

I still say vote. Contact your congresscritters. Twist their arms, but at the end of the day, follow the blueprint laid out by generations before us IF you want to reclaim your unalienable Rights.

 

[The Resister]

It's unfair to assume that all people with a criminal history are like that guy, although I would venture a guess a significant enough number are.

Same way that assuming all who are released should be fully trusted and if they can't be trusted then keep them locked down or buried.

However, there should be a path for somebody who is reformed to prove themselves trustworthy again and be made whole.

Many states, Washington and Oregon included, do offer a pathway to prove yourself and have firearms rights restored after convictions. There are inconsistencies cross country though. Some states don't recognize restoration, sometimes the federal gov doesn't recognize restoration. Or the one that confuses me more than any, the misdemeanor dv lifetime federal ban where the doj says the states can restore but states don't recognize they took the 2a right leaving the individual in limbo with no path forward. There are states where a misdemeanor conviction is worse for 2a than a felony conviction.

I have spent over four decades researching how to best rehabilitate someone who has been incarcerated. The gun lobby, however, is not receptive to lowering the death rates related to firearms by taking proactive measures. Most in positions of power in the gun lobby are reactionaries that get paid to fight. If the issue were solved, a lot of suits would be out of a job. They can keep these people on social media misinformed and it ultimately gives the left the ammo (no pun intended) to sell their anti-gun swill. This time the gun lobby doesn't get it. We are killing each other off and the left just sits back and enjoys the show.

 

[CRBMoA]

The gun lobby, however, is not receptive to lowering the death rates related to firearms by taking proactive measures. Most in positions of power in the gun lobby are reactionaries that get paid to fight.

Can you elaborate on these "proactive measures"? I am asking in good faith as I have been following this over the weekend, but I cannot recall reading about them.

 

[Darren Summers]

join the second amendment foundation. Don't wait until something you love is threatened, it will be too late..... I make my living with a gun and a knife I can't imagine doing anything else.
I have guided brown bear hunts in Alaska, hunted moose by proxy for native elders. My granddaughters come up from Oregon to deer hunt with me, all this and more will be gone if you simply say well I don't hunt that way, or why would anyone want that gun. Support from all of us, to all of us has never been more important.

 

[caliberbob]

I will 100% support this idea if simultaneously a new law is passed that legislators and politicians can't pass more laws. Doesn't make sense you say? Exactly. Screw these demon spawn and their evil ideas. Shall not be infringed was one of the single greatest lines built into our founders rights for us

 

[The Resister]

Can you elaborate on these "proactive measures"? I am asking in good faith as I have been following this over the weekend, but I cannot recall reading about them.

In post #46 there is a link to the Charter and Proclamation of the Rights of Man and another link that goes beyond the charter to discuss the second phase of what people would do beyond that.

Hopefully this will stay up, but the deal is this: If you are relying on political strategies and you think that you can revive the Constitution (and I promise that as much as I'd like to say we can save it), it simply cannot be done. But, IF that is your plan, then you have to stick measures on the table that would reduce firearm violence without gun control. Critics claim the ideas would never get passed. And I would ask them, and your point is? Look, if you have a bill to reduce firearm violence without gun control, you introduce it as an alternative to background checks, registration, etc. The right doesn't do that. They try to duke it out with the gun control people on the basis of a popularity contest... and we lose our Rights incrementally. Now, if you're keeping up with this thread and checking out the material presented, you have to realize we have NO Constitution. We are the only a Republic until Biden enacts gun control and eliminates the Electoral College.

Put alternative legislation on the table and the gun control people would not want to consider the bills. So, if they cannot negotiate in good faith, their bills die a horrible death. Instead we play this game of giving the anti - gunners what they want and then say to gun owners "whew, it could've been worse." Screw that. If you don't walk away with constitutional carry in exchange for Biden getting the Universal Background Check, then you will have to realize that what you have are political propaganda prostitutes representing you and you might want to try plan B, beginning with supporting the charter. Of course, you could always do both. But if Biden / Harris walk away with their signature legislation and the gun owners get nothing as a consolation prize, then I will be back to say I told you so.

History proves there is but one way to reclaim our unalienable Rights. It's not like I thought this up in myself in 15 minutes. Rather others contributed in the spirit of those that helped ratify the Declaration of Independence and the charter is the culmination of many years of research, trial, and error with several people providing their expertise. It doesn't end with the charter. It merely begins there.