Legal to Own SBR (Under 16") complete upper as long as not attached to lower in WA?

4Freedom · Jul 12, 2009

I am reading that a complete upper assembly AR is not an FFL item and can be directly purchased or mailed to your residence. On this same note, I am wondering if I purchase an upper assembly with a barrel under 16" (like lets say 8-12") and I keep it unattached from the lower assembly, would it be legal for me to possess in the state of Washington? I know in WA we are not allowed NFA weapons , although there is some weird laws, like being able to posses, but not shoot a silencer/suppressor.

I know once you own a SBR that you have get some type of NFA permit or pay a $200 fee. Assuming, that I can even own a SBR upper, how would I be able to legally shoot the gun once I drive down to Oregon. My shooting range is in Oregon and I know I can legally shoot many NFA type weapons there. However, I know shooting a short barreled rifle is not legal without the tax stamp or whatever permit I need for the gun.

Any ideas about the legality of owning the SBR upper in WA and the legal loopholes of being able to shoot it in Oregon at my shooting range?

Frog · Jul 13, 2009

You can own and shoot one of these legaly

Frog.

4Freedom · Jul 13, 2009

I think I have read something that unfortunately answers my own question. You can probably own the upper, but in order to legally connect the gun, it has to be a registered SBR lower receiver.. I don't think I can own that in the People's Republic of Washingtonstan :s0131:

fromotoc · Jul 13, 2009

Well, I am not a washingtonian, but you don't get a permit for a weapon, you pay the $200 tax stamp, go through the form 4/form 1/form 3 procedure and it's yours, but i don't think you can have an SBR in washington (not sure about that, though). But you could buy an AR pistol lower and not put a stock on it, and put your upper on your lower, and use your AR upper, as it will be an AR pistol.

4Freedom · Jul 13, 2009

I know I can own an AR pistol.. but that takes all the fun out of it

fromotoc · Jul 13, 2009

4Freedom said:
I know I can own an AR pistol.. but that takes all the fun out of it

If you REALLLLY want it, you could move to Oregon.

MarkSBG · Jul 13, 2009

If you own a lower (even if built into a legal rifle) and you buy a SBR upper, the NFA will consider it "Collective Possession" of an SBR. Don't do it!

The only way it would be legal to own that short upper is if you had a dedicated pistol lower that it was built into. It is like going out and buying a fully automatic fire control system, but not having the tax stamp for it. Either one of these actions will earn your some shiny bracelets and a long stretch in the federal pen.

Read this for more information:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=266557

here is a quote:

Q: Ok, I'm gonna buy my virgin receiver next week from my buddy FFL, but I wanna get a barrel today at the gunshow, say, one of these real nice 7" ones that are on sale.
A: If you already have an AR-15 rifle at home, even a stripped rifle receiver, DON'T buy a pistol barrel!

Q: Why not? They're on sale. This barrel will be the perfect addition to my AR-15 family... Oh.
A: Yep, by possessing a pistol length (under 16") barrel without owning a pistol receiver, while owning a rifle receiver, you are in possession of a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) and are enrolling in the Federal Golf Improvement Progam - say, for like 10 years.

Keane · Jul 13, 2009

MarkSBG said:
If you own a lower (even if built into a legal rifle) and you buy a SBR upper, the NFA will consider it "Collective Possession" of an SBR. Don't do it!

The only way it would be legal to own that short upper is if you had a dedicated pistol lower that it was built into. It is like going out and buying a fully automatic fire control system, but not having the tax stamp for it. Either one of these actions will earn your some shiny bracelets and a long stretch in the federal pen.

Read this for more information:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=266557

here is a quote:

The phrase is "Constructive Possession", but yes, you are correct.

MarkSBG · Jul 13, 2009

Whoops, thanks!

NoAim · Jul 13, 2009

MarkSBG said:
It is like going out and buying a fully automatic fire control system, but not having the tax stamp for it. Either one of these actions will earn your some shiny bracelets and a long stretch in the federal pen.

Actually, this isn't quite true. When you register a MG, it's usually the sear, etc. that is considered the "MG" part. So you wouldn't be able to possess one anyway without the NFA paperwork.

So you can have all full auto parts in your gun (in fact some of them make it run better), just not THE MG part (the registered part) and you're fine.

MarkSBG · Jul 13, 2009

I am not an expert at this, but I am pretty sure that if you have even one MG part for your lower, it is considered constructive possession. MG parts are OK in the upper, but not the lower. This is just where the NFA draws the line on MGs.

Anyone else know for sure.

toys · Jul 13, 2009

iirc, there is a word called "intent". or some other legal word. but the jist of it is. If you have the parts, eventually they will be assembled.

you can do as you please. its a free country. however, you know what you are doing and will have to pay that price if you get caught. are you willing to loose your prividgles for this? not to mention the fines and jail time.

also, since you are posting this question on this forum and possible others, all that would be needed to seal your fate is copies of your questions and the answers informing you that you shouldnt do it.

also, transporting NFA weapons across state lines requires prior notification to the BATFE.

do yourself a favor. MOVE.

another thing. why dont you ask your AG/BATFE and find out directly from the horses mouth?

one last comment. by posting your question here, you may have put the sites owners at risk. especially with your last comment.

4Freedom · Jul 14, 2009

toys said:
you can do as you please. its a free country. however, you know what you are doing and will have to pay that price if you get caught. are you willing to loose your prividgles for this? not to mention the fines and jail time.

also, since you are posting this question on this forum and possible others, all that would be needed to seal your fate is copies of your questions and the answers informing you that you shouldnt do it.

also, transporting NFA weapons across state lines requires prior notification to the BATFE.

do yourself a favor. MOVE.

another thing. why dont you ask your AG/BATFE and find out directly from the horses mouth?

one last comment. by posting your question here, you may have put the sites owners at risk. especially with your last comment.

Excuse me, I am not an expert, but I think you are a bit paranoid, perhaps? There is no crime asking the legality of owning certain firearms or their components that I am aware of. I never said I intended to illegaly transport short barreled firearms to Washington. I asked if it was possible to own a short barrel upper and shoot it in Oregon, the same way that people can own suppressors and shoot them in Oregon. It is perfectly acceptable to ask questions about legality and there is no way that could jeopardize myself or the owners of this site. If asking legal questions can have us arrested, I suppose the end is really near for us.

I am not aware of BATFE or any other organization like that, but I would like to investigate it and research it. I am pretty much not wanting to put the effort in and feel its a lost cause. I may eventually move back to Oregon, but I am taking advantage of not having state income tax vs. having cooler guns.

NoAim · Jul 14, 2009

I may have to take back my comments.

I am speaking from an Oregon-centric view. I've HEARD (second/third hand) that Washington state has a different view of what a "Machine Gun Part" is.

So you may want to check around first. Sorry.

toys · Jul 14, 2009

4Freedom said:
Excuse me, I am not an expert, but I think you are a bit paranoid, perhaps? There is no crime asking the legality of owning certain firearms or their components that I am aware of. I never said I intended to illegaly transport short barreled firearms to Washington. I asked if it was possible to own a short barrel upper and shoot it in Oregon, the same way that people can own suppressors and shoot them in Oregon. It is perfectly acceptable to ask questions about legality and there is no way that could jeopardize myself or the owners of this site. If asking legal questions can have us arrested, I suppose the end is really near for us.

I am not aware of BATFE or any other organization like that, but I would like to investigate it and research it. I am pretty much not wanting to put the effort in and feel its a lost cause. I may eventually move back to Oregon, but I am taking advantage of not having state income tax vs. having cooler guns.

No, there isnt a problem with asking, but you do have some understand of what you are asking since you want to find a "loophole" not my words, yours.

4Freedom said:
.....
Any ideas about the legality of owning the SBR upper in WA and the legal loopholes of being able to shoot it in Oregon at my shooting range?

"alot of effort" is subjective. Its a $200 tax stamp for an SBR and some paperwork, fingerprints and pictures.

when i see people wanting to find a "loophole" it just makes us gun owners look worse if/when the media gets ahold of it.

4Freedom · Jul 15, 2009

Ah ok.. well loophole probably wasn't the best word to use.. I apologize.. True.. in this day and age we have to be careful..

Seattle206 · Jul 24, 2009

I was actually thinking about going the 14.5" upper route too. After researching I think I'll just go ahead and have a phantom flash hider perm. attached so it brings barrel length to 16".