Just had my first turn-down for a class (Prohibited Person) what to advise?

[pdx210]

8th amendment doesn't give the government any right to define "cruel and unusual punishment", therefore that is left to the people to interpret. In OP's case, removing the ability of self-defense from people after they already suffered from years of unjust persecution from a drug-related non-crime certainly fits the definition of "cruel and unusual".

Yeah, and it's our state legislature elected by citizens that sets these laws ....your point?

As a citizen I believe he's lost his right through his own actions heroin in particular is a nasty drug.
Freedom isn't just a right it's a responsibility if you are reckless, stupid, mentally ill then the system steps in and you loose some or all of your liberties.

Then there's the issue of unjust laws, which you seem to dismiss offhand with "due process". As if a bunch of fascist bureaucrats running their "process" explains the dubious morality behind the drug war and removal of human rights from anyone who offended the government.

Define unjust law?


This often comes down to state laws via reciprocity or adoption of fed laws often in exchange for "fed funds"
For decades this state and others have made marijuana illegal and now have decided to change these laws
and the fed's are powerless to stop it.

 

[hermannr]

I don't understand you, can you explain it simpler?

When your court file is sealed/expunged...it is as if it did not exist. OK? As the feds use your state records, if the disqualifying offense has been removed from your record, how is it going to continue to keep you disqualified?

As to everyone that like the idea of a "prohibited person", may I remind you there is a little clause in the 14th amendment generally understood as "equal protection under the law"

Think about the prohibited person, that is not incarcerated, and thereby not personally protected by the state? As that person is not allowed to protect him/herself with a dangerous weapon. His/her life is not worth protecting and he has been relegated to second class citizen...he no longer has "equal protection" or the legal ability to protect him/herself...No?

 

[RB87]

And to add to this, research says about 7% of the US population is convicted felons. I'll stand side-by-side with the 93% and fight for my 2nd amendment rights. I'll bet that a few years ago finding a member on this site that would even consider a felon owning a gun would be like finding a gold nugget up a unicorn's azz.

Don't be scared of the propaganda guys. We stand stronger than people think. It's like watering down a drink. It does make more but it sure doesn't make it better or more effective.

Ahh, propaganda. You want some good propaganda, look up the Deluth model of domestic violence.

Heck, they don't even have to tell you you're going to be a naughty prohibted person until after the paper work has been filed due to ex-parte hearings for "restraining orders". Just file the paperwork, a person claims they're scared/fearful for their life and boom, you can't buy guns or even possess them in some cases, until a second hearing where you actually get a chance to face your accuser. Go look up David Letterman's famous case in New Mexico. I served on a grand jury some years ago where the DA put forth a case so flimsy not one of us jurors bought the story of the woman claiming she was assaulted by her boyfriend. Did you know in Oregon that if the kids see said domestic violence that bumps it up to a felony?

Long story short, its real easy to become a felon these days or something like it.

 

[dmancornell]

Yeah, and it's our state legislature elected by citizens that sets these laws ....your point?

Being forced to choose from a bunch of psychos with no option to opt-out of their rule is not consent of the governed, it's a sick joke.

As a citizen I believe he's lost his right through his own actions heroin in particular is a nasty drug.

And I think alcohol is a nasty drug. What's your point?

Freedom isn't just a right it's a responsibility if you are reckless, stupid, mentally ill then the system steps in and you loose some or all of your liberties.

Reckless, stupid, mentally ill. Are you talking about politicians? In any case, the only thing the "felon" in OP has done is consume a drug that a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats dislike. It's only a crime in the eyes of control freaks and their mindless drone followers.

Define unjust law?

In the context of this thread, it'd be laws that criminalize victimless crimes.

This often comes down to state laws via reciprocity or adoption of fed laws often in exchange for "fed funds"
For decades this state and others have made marijuana illegal and now have decided to change these laws
and the fed's are powerless to stop it.

So basically it's two corrupt institutions paying each other off to expand their criminal wars on the citizenry over their choice of pharmaceuticals. Got it.

 

[U201491]

This entire thread does the 2nd amendment cause harm.
I dont really give a damn who likes or doesnt like that statement.
It still does harm to pro 2nd people and the fight !

 

[pdx210]

Being forced to choose from a bunch of psychos with no option to opt-out of their rule is not consent of the governed, it's a sick joke.

Being forced opted out? ...that because the actions of other have repercussions on others in society. It's like being upstream from someone else's drinking water and peeing in it you see it as your right to pee where you want but what about them and their rights?

And I think alcohol is a nasty drug. What's your point?

Exactly! There's felony drunk driving as well just like heroin...
It's the same thing do stupid crap and have liberties restricted or taken away .

Reckless, stupid, mentally ill. Are you talking about politicians? In any case, the only thing the "felon" in OP has done is consume a drug that a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats dislike. It's only a crime in the eyes of control freaks and their mindless drone followers.

Actually, Yes I am talking about politicians as well as some citizens! How do you know the person mentioned in the Op's threads conviction was for consuming and not distributing , how do you know he wasn't selling to school children to someone that overdosed and died ?

In the context of this thread, it'd be laws that criminalize victimless crimes.

Again! How do you know his conviction was a victim less crime ?

So basically it's two corrupt institutions paying each other off to expand their criminal wars on the citizenry over their choice of pharmaceuticals. Got it.

I agree with that but they are not legal right now so mess with this crap and face a felony and a loss of liberties it's that simple. Don't like it, work to change the laws like pot heads have.

 

[dmancornell]

Being forced opted out? ...that because the actions of other have repercussions on others in society. It's like being upstream from someone else's drinking water and peeing in it you see it as your right to pee where you want but what about them and their rights?

Right, because using drugs that piss off old white people is the same as pissing in someone else's water.

Exactly! There's felony drunk driving as well just like heroin...
It's the same thing do stupid crap and have liberties restricted or taken away .

OP was dealing with a possession charge. Somewhat different from DUI.

Actually, Yes I am talking about politicians as well as some citizens! How do you know the person mentioned in the Op's threads conviction was for consuming and not distributing , how do you know he wasn't selling to school children to someone that overdosed and died ?

Because OP stated it was a possession charge?

Also liquor stores aren't liable for selling to people who go on to DUI, your argument is meaningless.

Again! How do you know his conviction was a victim less crime ?

See above.

I agree with that but they are not legal right now so mess with this crap and face a felony and a loss of liberties it's that simple. Don't like it, work to change the laws like pot heads have.

Stop changing the subject, the issue at hand is whether laws stripping people of rights after they served their sentence, and drug laws, are just to begin with. Your point on the state punishing and destroying the lives of people who dare to irritate the ruling class is self-evident. Of course they will. It's their primary function.

 

[Adam12]

Taxes do not imply a lack of freedom. Taxes are definitely out of hand and in the case of a Federal income tax, possibly illegal. I have auto insurance. Did you know that Washington himself imposed mandatory insurance on sailors? License to drive? Please show me where your right to "Keep And Bear Automobiles Shall Not Be Infringed".

My talk holds all kind of weight. Kissing the *** of your oppressors won't get you into a nicer concentration camp. "Shall Not Be Infringed" covers it and it has nothing to do with cars(before you go there, the right to interstate travel protects the citizen, not the car.). I'm glad I didn't leave too soon. The scared ones always like to come out after someone announces they are done with the thread. And with that, I'm done with this thread.

A great NON answer. I like the attempt to goad me into a personal argument. You follow rules all day long that "infringe" on your freedom. Speed limits, licensing. You rationalize it where the rest of society accepts the facts we have to abide by certain rule in order to allow countries to function.

 

[chariot13]

A great NON answer. I like the attempt to goad me into a personal argument. You follow rules all day long that "infringe" on your freedom. Speed limits, licensing. You rationalize it where the rest of society accepts the facts we have to abide by certain rule in order to allow countries to function.

Who said anyone follows rules all day long, especially the ones that infringes on their freedom? Any idea how many Americans would be felons if government actually cracked down on everyone and everything that they say is not allowed... I would conservatively guess well over 50% of the population. You know what would happen to government if they went after everyone and everything that they say is not allowed? That government would be put in their place by a bunch of pissed off people that would want to form their own Country, you know so they could be Free (remind you of any country). Also who said anything about wanting a country to function, btw this is functioning. Real Time US National Debt Clock | USA Debt Clock.com

 

[clambo]

I agree. But I'm not so far off to the left to argue that felons should have the right to bear arms. And I also think that people that decide to sell drugs, commit violence or do something that classifies as a felony probably isn't a great decision maker. I've NEVER considered snorting coke or selling drugs no matter how tough times got. I've never committed a violent crime because my brain and my conscience tells me NO! And can anyone please give some "repeat offender" stats?

Come on guys. There are way too many of us with clean records to need to start fighting for felons just out of spite to protect the 2nd.

Oops. Sorry, I meant to unlike this. I genuinely hope Kruejl never has to deal with the reality of overprosecution and plea bargaining. Likely you won't. Just know that reality is not like TV. while I am here, Boondocks, Jesus isnt gonna fly down here and fix any felons. Sorry. FWIW I wish he would too.

 

[MinnesotaORnewbie]

Way not to answer the question and then imply something that I didn't say at all. You'd make a great politician.

I agree, this is a tactic that more than a few on this website use. Doing so, a person has to be either trying to put someone else down or stir the pot, and/or feel better about themselves after doing so. Its really annoying and unfortunately it is a easy way to lure the OP into a debate and feelings or words that they may not normally use. Ask a question, not self imply for another person that you have zero clue on who or what type of person they are.

 

[Misterbill]

No sympathy here


He has a felony conviction and he knows it ..and he's in your class? So he's an idiot that doesn't understand or disregards the law and his legal standing.
There are procedures to get them back but that isn't in your class ...again the idiot stamp applies here!

1. He's NOT "in my class." I require a clean BG check because I regularly furnish firearms.
2. Aside from Federal (and closely tied state law), I would have this guy in my class without a second thought. You SERIOUSLY want to disqualify this guy from EVER owning a gun based on the fact that 29 years ago he had a conviction for POSSESSION of a substance Mommy Government decided was "naughty?" Seriously? nearly 30 YEARS LATER?

Tell me what threat he poses to you or anyone else. Seriously, Give me ONE rational position which ould begin to sway me, other than "I never got caught," which is YOUR excuse, because I promise you that over 40 years, you will have committed MULTIPLE felonies, but were just lucky enough not to get caught and prosecuted.

Convicted of Murder? I would have never posted the thread. Read the conviction for what it is. Then give me a rational explanation for why this guy should forever be a second-class citizen. You can follow that with a rational explanation of ANY reason why this guy should be a GG instead of just deciding to be a life-long criminal. After all, you've just given him no incentive whatever to becoming a GG.

 

[pdx210]

Right, because using drugs that piss off old white people is the same as pissing in someone else's water.

How do you think most heroin addicts get their money for drugs?

OP was dealing with a possession charge. Somewhat different from DUI.

& Because OP stated it was a possession charge?

Possession? possession with intent to distribute? ? As i said in an earlier post; It's very common to get plea bargained
down it saves the DA, court system time and money
or weaker/ circumstantial charges tossed out. So while convicted of felony drug possession
the original case could have included a whole bunch of stuff like armed robbery, attempted murder, rape ect.

In Oregon, Simple possession of heroin is a class C felony As it's been said before he can probably get this expunged. *If it's a more serious class a or b*
he's screwed which would also indicate more serious than simple possession.

Also liquor stores aren't liable for selling to people who go on to DUI, your argument is meaningless.

Really?

Then why do bars, pubs, liquor stores, carry liquor liability insurance?


<broken link removed>

Stop changing the subject, the issue at hand is whether laws stripping people of rights after they served their sentence, and drug laws, are just to begin with. Your point on the state punishing and destroying the lives of people who dare to irritate the ruling class is self-evident. Of course they will. It's their primary function.

Uh,huh.

As I said before; A felony is a label society gives that says a person isn't a responsible adult, a social miscreant or just plain too stupid to own gun and other things.
it's like life long parole if a simple possession charge he can get it changed but he has to prove himself .

Regarding that, he's been walking around with a felony for 27 years and doesn't know what that means rearguard firearms ownership ?

 

[pdx210]

1. He's NOT "in my class." I require a clean BG check because I regularly furnish firearms.
2. Aside from Federal (and closely tied state law), I would have this guy in my class without a second thought. You SERIOUSLY want to disqualify this guy from EVER owning a gun based on the fact that 29 years ago he had a conviction for POSSESSION of a substance Mommy Government decided was "naughty?" Seriously? nearly 30 YEARS LATER?

Tell me what threat he poses to you or anyone else. Seriously, Give me ONE rational position which ould begin to sway me, other than "I never got caught," which is YOUR excuse, because I promise you that over 40 years, you will have committed MULTIPLE felonies, but were just lucky enough not to get caught and prosecuted.

Convicted of Murder? I would have never posted the thread. Read the conviction for what it is. Then give me a rational explanation for why this guy should forever be a second-class citizen. You can follow that with a rational explanation of ANY reason why this guy should be a GG instead of just deciding to be a life-long criminal. After all, you've just given him no incentive whatever to becoming a GG.

Do you know this guy personally? What exactly word for word did you get back from his background check, how much info was furnished?



Seriously? nearly 30 YEARS LATER?

Absolutely, He needs to prove himself worthy and competent which shouldn't be a problem with a very old simple possession charge...right?

 

[dmancornell]

How do you think most heroin addicts get their money for drugs?

The drug prohibition is totally responsible for the drug price distortion. In any case, your point is meaningless, if some drug users steal to obtain income, that is already illegal and there are laws for that behavior.

Possession? possession with intent to distribute? ? As i said in an earlier post; It's very common to get plea bargained
down it saves the DA, court system time and money
or weaker/ circumstantial charges tossed out. So while convicted of felony drug possession
the original case could have included a whole bunch of stuff like armed robbery, attempted murder, rape ect.

In Oregon, Simple possession of heroin is a class C felony As it's been said before he can probably get this expunged. *If it's a more serious class a or b*
he's screwed which would also indicate more serious than simple possession.

tldr, irrelevant conjecture.

Really?

Then why do bars, pubs, liquor stores, carry liquor liability insurance?


<broken link removed>

That's for selling to already drunk people. Totally different from the blanket criminalization of selling drugs to people who then harmlessly consume said drugs in their homes.

Besides, that liquor store law is idiotic. "Looks intoxicated"? Typical government idiocy. Either require a breathalyzer, or don't.

Uh,huh.

As I said before; A felony is a label society gives that says a person isn't a responsible adult, a social miscreant or just plain too stupid to own gun and other things.
it's like life long parole if a simple possession charge he can get it changed but he has to prove himself .

Regarding that, he's been walking around with a felony for 27 years and doesn't know what that means rearguard firearms ownership ?

No, "felon" is a label the state gives to a person to who has annoyed them. "Society" is a weasel word of the highest order, used by people who cannot provide a logical explanation for their stubborn defense of insane government diktats.

Feel free to explain how you personally believe possessing heroin is actually a bad thing and said possessor to be stripped of his rights, as opposed to how "society" disapproves of such behavior.

 

[Adam12]

1. He's NOT "in my class." I require a clean BG check because I regularly furnish firearms.
2. Aside from Federal (and closely tied state law), I would have this guy in my class without a second thought. You SERIOUSLY want to disqualify this guy from EVER owning a gun based on the fact that 29 years ago he had a conviction for POSSESSION of a substance Mommy Government decided was "naughty?" Seriously? nearly 30 YEARS LATER?

Tell me what threat he poses to you or anyone else. Seriously, Give me ONE rational position which ould begin to sway me, other than "I never got caught," which is YOUR excuse, because I promise you that over 40 years, you will have committed MULTIPLE felonies, but were just lucky enough not to get caught and prosecuted.

Convicted of Murder? I would have never posted the thread. Read the conviction for what it is. Then give me a rational explanation for why this guy should forever be a second-class citizen. You can follow that with a rational explanation of ANY reason why this guy should be a GG instead of just deciding to be a life-long criminal. After all, you've just given him no incentive whatever to becoming a GG.

I am glad he can't carry a gun. He made "bad decisions" (committing crimes) in the past. How do you know he is not still making "bad decisions?" And, how can you really judge his abilities to make good decisions now (not commit crimes)? Thirty years ago he was convicted of a felony and nothing since. At least, nothing he has been caught with. Who is to say he say he is not still using? In any event, my advice is to wish him well.

 

[unklekippy]

The bottom line is that The Second exempts gun ownership from all this crap. That is exactly why they went out of their way to put in THE RULES that it "Shall Not Be Infringed". It gives no room for infringement, which was the intention and why it is written as such. Coming up with a bunch of other illegal laws doesn't give the government an excuse to make more illegal laws keeping people defenseless.

Why were a man's guns waiting for him AT THE JAIL in the late 1800's? It's because stripping a man of his means of defense is not only illegal, but disgusting and wrong.

 

[Adam12]

The drug prohibition is totally responsible for the drug price distortion. In any case, your point is meaningless, if some drug users steal to obtain income, that is already illegal and there are laws for that behavior.

So, how do you explain the same price of marijuana where it has been decriminalized? Oregon's marijuana prices have stayed the same over the years in spite of decriminalization of larger and larger quantities.

Drug use and other crimes go hand in hand. Drug users (addicts) cannot sustain employment and most never had employment to start with. So, they turn to crime to feed their habit. It often starts with, or is sustained by, ID theft, property crimes and some turn to violent crimes if the need arises.

Drug use and property crime go together like peas and carrots. There are no long term "functioning drug users."

 

[unklekippy]

A great NON answer. I like the attempt to goad me into a personal argument. You follow rules all day long that "infringe" on your freedom. Speed limits, licensing. You rationalize it where the rest of society accepts the facts we have to abide by certain rule in order to allow countries to function.

You're worthless. Where are these speed limit laws you speak of in The Constitution I keep quoting? Which Amendment covers your right to "Keep And Bear Automobiles"?

I follow oppressive laws because it allows me to live my life and stay out of the private prison system. No one has the right to disarm anyone. Your attempts to legitimize an illegal law by pointing out other illegal laws is the most ridiculous thing I've heard.

The "rest of society" is not OK with oppression, no matter what Chris Matthews told you. These "facts" you bring up are the same that The King and Steadman cite. They don't exist and have no influence on the rules of our country. You don't have to like it, but unchecked, unexempted firearm ownership is exactly what we created here. You're "for the good of the whole" BS needs to go back to Europe. Here in America, we appreciate the rights of the individual, not a non-existent "Right To Not Be Afraid", which is where your illegal gun restrictions lie.

 

[unklekippy]

So, how do you explain the same price of marijuana where it has been decriminalized? Oregon's marijuana prices have stayed the same over the years in spite of decriminalization of larger and larger quantities.

Drug use and other crimes go hand in hand. Drug users (addicts) cannot sustain employment and most never had employment to start with. So, they turn to crime to feed their habit. It often starts with, or is sustained by, ID theft, property crimes and some turn to violent crimes if the need arises.

Drug use and property crime go together like peas and carrots. There are no long term "functioning drug users."

It isn't the same price. Pot used to be over $300/oz. It now sits at $125-150/oz. So, there goes that.