"I've never felt outgunned with my 5 shot snubbie."

[RBid]

I like this thirt.... kinda says it all, don't it??

Brutus Out!

I shake my head whenever I see that shirt or meme.

I have a friend who was hit in the upper chest/shoulder with a round of 7.62x39, from about 50 yards away. He continued to fight, until thrown from a vehicle by an IED explosion. This same person knows another guy who took a round of 7.62x39 in almost the same place, and finished a firefight. They both lived. You'd never know that my friend got hit. He's not disabled in any way.

7.62x39 > .45 ACP, and it still didn't get a one shot stop on a guy who I would guess is about 5'5", 140 pounds. Granted, he's about as mentally tough as you're going to find, but the fact remains that "stopping power" really isn't what people think it is.

That tshirt is for people who just don't know any better.

 

[fireninja13]

Y'know, wearing t-shirts like that are a great way to get a lot of negative police attention, especially in urban areas.

But, the larger issue is that one of the biggest advantage of carrying concealed is that (if you do it well) no one else knows you're packing. IMHO, the element of surprise is a weapon of a whole different caliber -- think of what Mossad agents have done with a puny little .22lr and the element of surprise.

If nothing else, you're not singled out for special attention (or summary execution) in a bank robbery or similar situation. But, maybe, just maybe, the fact that you're armed and no one knows could mean saving your life, and possibly the lives of others. Why give that away for a little machismo and bluster?

 

[biggie24420]

Sometimes I carry two Glock 31 round mags (took the +2 off) and I have a 19 round mag in the G17 +1 in the pipe lol

 

[BoonDocks36]

That is why I prefer a Six Shot 5 shot snub nosed
...
...
...
...
/end sarcastic semi joke.

One issue NON-LEO'S always have is Dollar Availability.

I had the oppertunity to purchase a 632 S&W chambered in 32 H&R Magnum, handed to me by a LEO, in front of the owner, minus all the ammo owner Did have ( ????? Where did all the ammo go, sung to Where have all the Flowers gone, circa 1960's ) Price, $100.00. I then bought and handed over by same LEO, a 7mm Bolt Action, again minus all the owners ammo ( reprieve of song... )

Only Then did the owner get released... Into my custody !!! His crime? Being known by the arresting LEO & pulling over then falling asleep, knowing he could Not make it home. Bad Luck in the City of Florence Oregon.

Until then I had only a Ruger Mk II stainless, for back packing...

I later bought a 9mm Kel-Tec P11, then a P-32, then another P11.... Only because finances were extremely tight. Years apart...

Now, with Two Glock's under my care, I still have all the above, plus a S&W 442 which I love, as much as the nearly twice as heavy 632 S&W.

My point is we should all understand One thing: we are in this together, us Patriots. And if help comes to ~you~ in that future point in time, don't put down the dude/ette if he/She only has a 4" Model 10, that dad carried "on duty" fifty years ago... Rounds down range, with a small arms are only meant to give you time to get to your Long Arm...

And yes, I have had my hand, on the Butt of my Security Six, and showing that to the Bad Guy, who thought he was alone, with "his" victim, BG LEFT, Quickly, and I recovered my legal concealed weapon, to assist the young lady...

philip,
In the Boondocks... I have many great memories of buying hand guns, a few Painfull Memories, of Must Sell one.

Edited for Spellin Airs, and Klairifing a sentence...

 

[Jammer Six]

If I were in this with anybody, I'd hope it would be you, Boondocks.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Helping the uninitiated into wiser choices is a positive form of friendship

If they take it otherwise then it's their loss

 

[Certaindeaf]

I remember that American dood that got caught over in Afghanistan trying to hunt down Osama with a Samurai sword.. he laughs at such shenanigans!
I wonder whatever happened to him.

 

[China man]

Oh man, this thread is making me rethink my carry equipment. Time to get one of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=episodic&v=W66TPHy5lJw&NR=1

 

[pdxjazz]

25acp out of a pocket automatic.

Ballistics Test - 25 acp - Colt 25 through wet pack and denim - penetration test - YouTube

I too sometimes carry a .25 acp (Beretta 950BS) as it's so light, compact, and very reliable. Certainly not the best caliber choice for every day carry, but good for pocket carry on warm days. I thought that same guy's other video on the .25 acp penetration was even more impressive, and 9 shots of this round would smart a bit-

Ballistics Test - 25acp (Raven) - coconut, water, squash - Penetation Test - YouTube

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

One of the guys who helped me re think the "bigger is better and only a .45 is good enough" idea was an ER doctor/surgeon and a combat veteran as well. He has seen and treated a lot of gunshots as well as witnessed survivability and death. Personally he shoots a .45 cal Sig Sauer and it hides on his 6' 260 lb frame seamlessly.

He proved to me that 2 .45's to the chest is survived in many cases and at least allowed the shot individual the continue to be a combatant. He told me that he never saw a person survive multiple hits with .22, .25, or .32 to the head and face. They are instantly fatal and incapacitate instantly as well.

Carrying any handgun with an expectation of a one shot stop is ignorance of statistics. My theory is that 3 or more .25's to the face in rapid order will end a gun fight way faster than a .45 to center mass with the expectation that this is a fight ender. We all carry what we are confident with and with what have used in practice and can deploy multiple shots to critical areas as quickly and accurately as possible. Me?

I'm a big believer of simple guns like a .32 ACP or .38 revolver. It does not print, it is simple and fast to deploy, easy to control, and a combatant does not see it until it puts a volley into his eyeball. I'd hate to be shot with anything but I'm utterly confident that three + .25's to the head is instantly incapacitating and feel that t-shirts that groom folks into a false sense that a .45 and one shot is all we need is not a centered philosophy. Bigger *is* better and a big bullet is better than a smaller bullet. But placement is everything when a life is on the line and some of us cannot deploy and hit consistently with large caliber wonderguns. A simple .38 revolver is great protection as is a .25 auto if one is confident and proficient.

VooDoo

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Your PHD needs to get out more.. small, low velocity calibers are famous for bouncing off hard bone like skulls.. also try hitting the head of a fast moving, shucking, jiving target who is popping shots at you..

If a 38 is great protection why do no cops carry them these days?

 

[Brutus57]

What did he say about a 45 to the head for knock down power? Comparing headshot to center of mass shots is apples to oranges. There is a reason the .45 was adopted. Sure, smaller calibers can be as deadly but in this case as with some other things in life bigger is all things considered ...better. Personally I'd rather not get shot by even a twenty two, but if in a one shot duel I can taker a bigger caliber over a smaller one... I prefer more lead. YMMV

Brutus out

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

As you said shot placement is everything and small autos and revolvers are difficult to hit much beyond 7-10 yards in a fast moving environment and certainly making those ‘eyeball' shots challenging.

Agreed. My Colt .32 auto gets consistent head shots at 30' while I am moving to cover or perpendicular to the target. Nothing makes good, fast shots beyond 30' and for me the bigger the caliber the more I miss and shot cadence decreases rapidly. My first response was long winded and inappropriate....my "to the point" is that perpetuating the ".45 is a one shot show stopper" myth is ignorant. The best pistol in a gunfight is the one we can get critical hits (multiple hits) in rapid succession and if this is a 5 shot .38 or a .32 ACP it will be more effective than carrying a .45 that we can't shoot.

T-shirts touting a .45 as a one shot show stopper offend me because they perpetuate myths that simply might get people killed when they could better defend themselves with a 5 shot .38 or a .25 caliber pocket pistol.

That's my point...I apologize if I have convoluted the thread and idea.

VooDoo

 

[redbos99]

Carrying a gun is better no than no gun at all. I am not a Police Officer , just a citizen. Having said that, I feel very comfy with my Glock 19 with good JHP's and a spare 17+2 mag in my pocket. I know most defensive shootings involving a citizen will only involve a round or two, but thats my comfort factor.

 

[RBid]

Voodoo,

If head hits on moving targets were even a little realistic, they would be taught by every instructor out there. Instead, the most common way for them to come into play is (first) two to the body (then) one to the head.

Even if you've ever been in a serious fist fight, you should recognize how frequently and quickly heads move in dynamic situations. Add the challenge of trying to get it done with a pocket pistol, and 8 rounds? No, thanks.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I cannot argue with the logic, sir, having been in more than a few serious fist fights and weapon fights not involving firearms. Trained/taught swordsmanship, Jujutsu, Aikido for almost 20 years and every Thursday night at the dojo was "fight night" with up and coming MMA guys. Played R & R in bars from Chicago to Detroit and Miami back in the day and have seen more than my share of violence and street/bar attacks. Luckily in the dojo they let me spar with guys my own age but still..I am well aware that what you are saying is correct.

Not trying to rattle any cages or upset anyone or be disrespectful. I just feel that the whole "bigger is better" and that we need mag caps of 15+ rounds to defend ourselves is "not fair" or correct. If I was a police officer and charged with defending the public or rounding up bad asses for a living I'd certainly opt for something bigger ( a 12 gauge) with more magazine capacity but my only advantage as an armed citizen is to not print that I am carrying and to do that I need something that is a little smaller that I am competent with and feel very confident with.

I simply cannot fire these double stacked flame throwers without endangering everything within 5 blocks of the confrontation. Neither can my wife nor half the folks I have seen shoot at the local ranges or post on YouTube.

I feel that a lot of folks would maybe be better off to sport a 5 shot .38 or a higher capacity .380 ACP that they are deadly with than to carry .45 mini pistols that buck like a mule and recoil beyond a reasonable ability to get a second, third and fourth shot to a critical area in rapid succession. Sure, we have all seen the YouTube vids of these extremely competent pistol aficionados drilling targets at 30' in rapid fire with big powerful handguns and if folks can pull that off I support them using that firepower.

I can't do it and neither can any of the folks I know who want to defend their lives that I shoot with...we *can* and do drill targets in critical areas with our tiny little revolvers and tiny little pistols. So, we'll have to hope for the best with this that we can. I'm not giving up because I can't carry or use something that will give me a "one shot stop". I don't believe that can happen with a handgun. Unless it's to the face and then it doesn't matter if it is a .32 ACP or a 2" .38 special or a 15 shot .45 ACP.

Sorry to be controversial but I don't feel outgunned with a 2" 5 shot revolver.

VooDoo

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Nope. Would you feel the same against 3 attackers with a high cap .45? I'm not an LEO...I *am* tactically/situationally aware and would try and avoid an armed confrontation with 3 armed attackers. If confronted with this scenario (assuming I could not escape by shucking and running after a preemptive attack...I am very fast and agile even at 58) I'd likely leave the pistol and go to the knife...I can still cover 21' in less time than someone can likely shoot me and if I get at them with a knife they will not make it to an emergency room.

For what it's worth I trained with cops and my Jujutsu sensei was a cop. We have trained these scenarios with cops and plastic guns and knives, multiple attackers, and all that many, many times. We have many times, with a drawn gun, tried to shoot a guy who charged at us at 20' or so with a big *** knife and not once did the hand gunner win. Not even close. A high cap .45 wonder pistol will not save anyone. Training and tactics will and situational awareness, skill, and confidence are better than a flame throwing, big pistol. Can I defend myself against 3 Ninjas armed with state of the art pistols and skills beyond imagination? Nope. Can You? How good are these guys anyway with a gun - I don't remember seeing them in the dojo or the shooting range but I'll assume a punk (or 3 or 5) with a stolen Glock can probably clean my clock and so I'll go hide under the bed or try and conceal a machine gun under my Tshirt.


This is now getting ridiculous and I bow out and defer. I'm a dead man and cannot defend myself against an army of zombies or gang bangers with my .38 5 shot revolver or with my 8 shot .32 ACP.

I'm confident in my skills and mindset. If that makes me a fool then I'm sure you'll not miss me much at roll call. Good luck. Done!

VooDoo

 

[Brutus57]

Well, I finally found some .32 Auto for my French Police d' Etat today at Cabela's. No 5.56 except big bulk and ONE lonely .22 short box for .22.

So I am going to use my .45 with my dominant hand and my .32 or .,380 with my right hand which is almost as good with a pistol as my dominant hand. It also gives me 17 to 19 rounds to match those double stack Glocks. Because when I learned to shoot a rifle at about 8 years old there were no left handed actions in my family. So to this day while being left handed I shoot a rifle right handed. It seems natural.

I agree it is best to be proficient in what you have or prefer but in average pistol rounds 230 grains HAS MORE STOPPING/knockdown POWER per bullet. That is ballistic fact according to the experts/real world. Agreed the 9MMs carry more BBs and I really want a Keltec P series 22 magnum cause a fistful of thirty! 22 magnum shells is going to hurt no matter who you are. I would still like a Browning Hi Power 9 simply for nostalgia's sake. I have a big hands and for me a larger pistol is easier to shoot unless its a 44 Magnum SA the original Black Hawk grips are still just too small. YMMV

Brutus Out

 

[Blitzkrieg]

45 ACP FMJ = 36 caliber permanent wound path

9MM FMJ = 25 caliber permanent wound path

Modern 45 ACP JHP = 90 caliber terminal wound path

Modern 9MM JHP = 70 caliber terminal wound path

Big increase in relative damage for the smaller caliber, IF IF IF it is 9MM +P or better in velocity

 

[Jr1982]

These threads always crack me up, you see guys with thousands of posts and wonder how they can be such "experts" when all their time is spent having dumb *** arguments about the best caliber, glock vs 1911, my gun is lighter so therefore it's better. When the hell do they actually shoot their guns?

Fat mall ninjas carrying carrying glocks and 60+ rounds in loaded mags scare me more than the bad guys. When the bubblegum hits the fan these stupid idiots are gonna be throwing lead around not thinking about their background and gonna get innocent bystanders killed. Carrying more ammo makes some sense but if your not accurate with five rounds then you're not gonna be accurate with 60 rounds.

Shut the hell up, go out, shoot your gun and hope you never have to use it.