Health Care Bill and Gun Compromise...

[mudnducs]

Lets do this first, my point was that the federal gov delivers health care insurance at 10 to 20% greater efficiency than the private companies. In response to this you linked a site with a document by the insurance industry that seeks to dispute my contention. The first thing I pointed out was that your cite show medicare at a higher level of efficiency than I claimed, one more point for me and my figures. Then they used the industry declared spending of the insurance companies to show how they spend the extra overhead, and I said that the government wouldn't have to pay any of that stuff, and that is true. So my point stands, and is accurate, frisking indeed!

Yes. I know what your point was. I allowed as how it may be possible....certainly not to the extent you assert.
I don't buy it and it doesn't matter.
I already said that.

The larger point is that you look to government to "solve" problems first. ‘You' and by that I mean all commies/progs...will enslave us with your vision.

...but you "like" Jefferson......LOL

It's "fisking"........look it up Mr Socialist.

 

[bugeye]

"Lot's of things?"
Yes...that's kinda the problem. They're outside their boundary...and morons are cheering for more.
So long as we have progreeeessives willing to look first to government to fix what they see as a problem…we will have continued growth in government.
There is no end for a socialist/ prog. There is no boundary they will not cross.
It is never enough until our society resembles Chinas….maybe that will be enough.

Ironic that China has turned to capitalism to bring vibrancy and stature to the largest nation on earth…no?

.

Nice rant, sort of goofy though, you should begin by defining the term progressive, as your righties have hijacked it. Your view is like Becks or Limbaugh's, and these are people hired by the money in order to convince the unmonied, that the money (other than Soros money) is good and that government is bad. So they need a boogyman, and who better then the pesky progressives who stand in the way of the money taking over the country. So, the sell out yappers demonize the progressives and the public absorbs this, because they have hired the best yappers money can buy (I admire these guys as much as I detest them). Money - pundit - brainwashing = an army against the money's primary opposition the progressives, nice circle huh, b etter than any of Beck's and more accurate too!

This is where we are now! The corporations are going to take over the gov and many of you think this will be a good thing, sheesh. The recent 'republican' supreme court decision makes this inevitable, as they will be buying votes for their elected proxies. The only thing that can prevent this takeover is a smarter public. Considering the state of your minds, there is little hope. Emotionalism is a dime a dozen, only facts and reason can save us from a hundred billion bucks of advertising.

 

[mudnducs]

Nice rant, sort of goofy though, you should begin by defining the term progressive, as your righties have hijacked it. Your view is like Becks or Limbaugh's, and these are people hired by the money in order to convince the unmonied, that the money (other than Soros money) is good and that government is bad. So they need a boogyman, and who better then the pesky progressives who stand in the way of the money taking over the country. So, the sell out yappers demonize the progressives and the public absorbs this, because they have hired the best yappers money can buy (I admire these guys as much as I detest them). Money - pundit - brainwashing = an army against the money's primary opposition the progressives, nice circle huh, b etter than any of Beck's and more accurate too!

This is where we are now! The corporations are going to take over the gov and many of you think this will be a good thing, sheesh. The recent 'republican' supreme court decision makes this inevitable, as they will be buying votes for their elected proxies. The only thing that can prevent this takeover is a smarter public. Considering the state of your minds, there is little hope. Emotionalism is a dime a dozen, only facts and reason can save us from a hundred billion bucks of advertising.

Is there a point here…or is this a rant?

 

[bugeye]

Is there a point here...or is this a rant?

An anti rant rant, yes, you got me, lol.

Anyone who is a modern american who just knows they haven't been brainwashed is just plain nuts.

I did have to look up fisking, you got me there too.
It's no surprise, especially to me, that I'm no genius, but I do know two things about politics.

1. If you want to find out who is manipulating the system follow the money.
2. Money makes the world go round!

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Driving is not protected by the US Constitution. Your freedom of travel and movement is, but not the means. With what you say, what will happen when some idiot decides you have to have insurance to own a firearm??

Regardless of what the courts have decided, I do not agree with this concept.. it is the same as saying you have a "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" and then saying you can be limited to a single shot shotgun, or a "Right to Freedom of Speech" but then any "offensive" speech is illegal

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Sounds like an opinion. In my opinion thieves do in fact deserve prison time, PERIOD.
Any argument you make for rationalization due to circumstances can also be used to justify planning. Borrowing property and not returning it is theft.

Mao and Lenin would agree more with your position than mine.

But being forced to buy insurance, being unconstitutional, is theft. I submit that the people who are behind that plan could use prison time too.

Prison is a waste of taxpayer's money, and in fact is unbiblical (not going to argue that, it's a fact, though)

Restitution is the answer.. if you steal $1,000 you have to pay back $2,000. If you rape or murder, you get the death penalty. If you're an illegal alien invader you do hard labor for years cleaning up our land and building border defenses before you are deported.. etc

Would clean up our problems in short order. Prison is a revolving door industry which the genuine thugs consider to be a university.. they come out knowing 10X what they did in criminal techniques

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Here you go...read a little Hanson. You might learn something.

An Historic Pelosi?

I suppose one could interpret the healthcare bill as "Pelosi's historic achievement," as the media has been insisting, but that would also mean that an unpopular President and a more unpopular Congress and a most unpopular Speaker together railroaded through an unpopular, sweeping piece of legislation without a single opposition vote, and through the sort of tawdry legislative bribery and procedural gimmicks we haven't seen since the 19th century. So the bill is historic mostly in the minds of the D.C.–New York liberal punditocracy and Democratic stalwarts, for about another seven months, before the people weigh in themselves.

I don't think by year's end too many will call the bill historic; and when the opposition eventually takes over the Congress (and it always does), and its zealots begin to ram through radical, partisan changes, in the manner of Pelosi's precedent, "historic" will be the last adjective we used to look back on March 21 and the role of the Speaker. The means live on; the ends are ephemeral — and Pelosi's conduct tarnished the Congress and will unleash a no-holds-barred reaction when she is out of power that will make historians think very carefully about the real lasting wages of her most unpopular tenure.

Wouldn't it be awesome if a real, true conservative congress took over with a veto proof majority, and overturned all the socialism and pro 3rd world immigration laws of the last 45 years? And overturned the 1968 and 1934 anti 2nd Amendment laws? Just ram it all through using the "nuclear option" !!!

Turnabout is fair play.. time to play hardball

 

[Stomper]

So, you want the gov to just go away and not regulate interactions between corporations (business) and the public? When corporations price fix that is ok with you. When they buy competion so there is no competion than that's ok with you too. When they produce bonds that sell so they drive the price of real estate through the roof by giving home loans to anyone, hey no problem. Your 'paradise' would be a system fit for the 8th layer of hades, sheesh.

What you are seeing is between your two ears.

Now I never said we don't need ANY government, anti-trust laws are OBVIOUSLY needed to prevent price fixing and punish those who would comit crimes, but that is no reason to go the extreme OTHER direction with a HUGE "all powerful" government. Yes "big business needs to be kept on a leash, but if you honestly think about it... "big labor" in the other side of the same coin... side-A is big "business/corporatism"... side-B is "big labor unions".... both are self-serving and lead to tyranny and slavery.... IMHO

 

[Father of four]

Wouldn't it be awesome if a real, true conservative congress took over...

Turnabout is fair play.. time to play hardball

I would love to see that happen!

 

[mudnducs]

An anti rant rant, yes, you got me, lol.

Anyone who is a modern american who just knows they haven't been brainwashed is just plain nuts.

I did have to look up fisking, you got me there too.
It's no surprise, especially to me, that I'm no genius, but I do know two things about politics.

1. If you want to find out who is manipulating the system follow the money.
2. Money makes the world go round!

Again we disagree Sir. Your characterization of 'brainwashing' implies moral relativism....that there is no right or wrong....that conservatism and progressivism are inherently equal at some level and it's only a matter of perspective who may be considered brainwashed.

There is right and there is wrong. Study of the doctrine assembled collectively by our Founding Fathers in no way implies brainwashing. They were giants who stood on the shoulders of the giants who came before them and for the first time in human experience formed the notion of equal opportunity and the rule of law.

That simply can not be misconstrued as brainwashing...it is based on too much that is historically proven as true.


However we agree that money makes the economic and political worlds go round. There is nothing inherently wrong in that.

At the risk of being too damned preachy...read the soliloquy on money by the character Francisco D'Anconia in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged"....yep fiction; but likely the best explanation of why we need money and what it represents....any of us will ever read. It's so good I'm sure it can be found on the web separated from the book.

 

[U201491]

Prison is a waste of taxpayer's money, and in fact is unbiblical (not going to argue that, it's a fact, though)

Restitution is the answer.. if you steal $1,000 you have to pay back $2,000. If you rape or murder, you get the death penalty. If you're an illegal alien invader you do hard labor for years cleaning up our land and building border defenses before you are deported.. etc

Would clean up our problems in short order. Prison is a revolving door industry which the genuine thugs consider to be a university.. they come out knowing 10X what they did in criminal techniques

Great concept. That makes a lot more sense. Having to buy gov health care should not be in any offense category at all. Being forced to buy government anything is soviet style tyranny.

On a different note:
Curious also how did there get to be so many liberals lurking on a firearms forum?

 

[Father of four]

Liberals have the right to own/carry firearms. Maybe them owning some might help them to move a little more toward the center from FAAAAARR left...

The liberals will be made to pay for this "Demanded" free healthcare just like everyone else, and they may also be made to give up their right to own a firearm. Then lets see how much they like it.

 

[U201491]

Liberals have the right to own/carry firearms. Maybe them owning some might help them to move a little more toward the center from FAAAAARR left...

The liberals will be made to pay for this "Demanded" free healthcare just like everyone else, and they may also be made to give up their right to own a firearm. Then lets see how much they like it.

Yes, but I have found that the most vocal anti gun liberals either have firearms or body guards or both.
Hyprocracy abounds. Also beware as they are camelions that pretend to be what they are not most of the time.

I found this and it really fits the mentality of the socialist/marxist mind.
Some humor:

"The Biker and the Loin

A Harley biker is riding by the zoo in Washington , DC when he sees a little girl leaning into the lion's cage.

Suddenly, the lion grabs her by the cuff of her jacket and tries to pull her
inside to slaughter her, under the eyes of her screaming parents.


The biker jumps off his Harley, runs to the cage and hits the lion square on the nose with a powerful punch.


Whimpering from the pain the lion jumps back letting go of the girl, and the biker brings her to her terrified parents, who thank him endlessly.

A reporter has watched the whole event. The reporter addressing the Harley rider says, 'Sir, this was the most gallant and brave thing I've seen a man do in my whole life.'

The Harley rider replies, 'Why, it was nothing, really, the lion was behind bars. I just saw this little kid in danger and acted as I felt right.'

The reporter says, 'Well, I'll make sure this won't go unnoticed. I'm a journalist, and tomorrow's paper will have this story on the front page...
So, what do you do for a living and what political affiliation do you have?'

The biker replies, 'I'm a U.S. Marine and a Republican.'

The journalist leaves.

The following morning the biker buys the paper to see news of his actions, and reads, on the front page:


U.S. MARINE ASSAULTS AFRICAN IMMIGRANT
AND STEALS HIS LUNCH "

That pretty much sums up the liberals and media's approach to the news these days.

Beware those that pretend to be what they are not.

 

[bugeye]

Now I never said we don't need ANY government, anti-trust laws are OBVIOUSLY needed to prevent price fixing and punish those who would comit crimes, but that is no reason to go the extreme OTHER direction with a HUGE "all powerful" government. Yes "big business needs to be kept on a leash, but if you honestly think about it... "big labor" in the other side of the same coin... side-A is big "business/corporatism"... side-B is "big labor unions".... both are self-serving and lead to tyranny and slavery.... IMHO

Do we still have big labor in this country? Labor unions represent only 12.4% of the American work force. At least half the union membership is in unions that really are extensions of management like the ones that represent most retail workers.

Good, I'm glad you see a need for balance.
I wonder where we are going to get any when the corporations start directly spending billions to put their proxies into office?

 

[bugeye]

Great concept. That makes a lot more sense. Having to buy gov health care should not be in any offense category at all. Being forced to buy government anything is soviet style tyranny.

On a different note:
Curious also how did there get to be so many liberals lurking on a firearms forum?

In this law the government is not providing insurance to anyone it wasn't allready providing insurance for now, so you get to buy it from a corporation that will overcharge you for it.

We felt we had to arm ourselves to stop you goofs from making Glenn Beck the Fuhrer.

 

[Stomper]

Do we still have big labor in this country? Labor unions represent only 12.4% of the American work force. At least half the union membership is in unions that really are extensions of management like the ones that represent most retail workers.

Good, I'm glad you see a need for balance.
I wonder where we are going to get any when the corporations start directly spending billions to put their proxies into office?

I'm in a trade union here, and yes... approx. 12% of the workforce is union. It sure does seem that unions are far more disproportionally "influencing" governement policies and agendas (ala Andy Stern, Sweeny, etc. they creep me out BTW) Who do you think had a MAJOR hand in writing the healthcare bill? You KNOW our elected officials didn't write it... heh, MOST of them (who voted for it) are still finding out what's ACTUALLY in it. I know that union pension funds/benefits are in BIG trouble, our local just dodged a BIG bullet last year as our pension fund was almost to the point where the Fed would have taken over it because it was too low (insolvent), but during contract negotiations all "pay raises" were put towards that instead of our paychecks... so we ultimately lost ground, while the thugs back East get to have there annual "meetings" in Vegas on our dime(s).

The MAIN reason I'm so against the healthcare bill is because it's NOT about taking care of people, its a cover story so the unions can shift their financial burdens onto the tax payers and so left-wing extremists can FINALLY exert their ideolgy on "the masses"... talk about "special interests"!! My wife is Australian, they have "socialized" medicine over there and everyone seems to really like it, and from what I can see it's fairly well squared away, but the thing is their systems IS about taking care of healthcare, while our impending one is not.... its about "not wasting a perfectly good crisis".

 

[mudnducs]

In this law the government is not providing insurance to anyone it wasn't allready providing insurance for now, so you get to buy it from a corporation that will overcharge you for it.

We felt we had to arm ourselves to stop you goofs from making Glenn Beck the Fuhrer.

The government is not providing insurance...instead the government is requiring private citizens, for the first time our government is DEMANDING at point of law that we buy something, health insurance....but somehow we are not supposed to buy into the government control of insurance industry.

Further, when prices go up...as they surely will when a company has a built in "audience" for their services...(and a mandated audience at that) will government let them do that to whatever price point they see fit?

Or will government control the prices they are allowed to charge?

I think they will do the latter, because rising prices won't be popular, because they think it's their right, and because they actually believe they have the ability. ...of course, they do not.

How is it that government can control who buys what, and who gets paid, and how much...but it is not government insurance?

Yes. It is government insurance. They simply lie and hide behind the smoke and mirrors of their subterfuge. Looters.


That progs/libs should have guns is not surprising. It gives them momentary creedence in an overwhelmingly conservative base...they can appear to support parts of the Constitution while undermining it.

Glenn Beck is a little overly dramatic. Glen Beck speaks the truth FAR more than those who mock him.
GO GLEN BECK!


.

 

[bugeye]

I'm in a trade union here, and yes... approx. 12% of the workforce is union. It sure does seem that unions are far more disproportionally "influencing" governement policies and agendas (ala Andy Stern, Sweeny, etc. they creep me out BTW) Who do you think had a MAJOR hand in writing the healthcare bill? You KNOW our elected officials didn't write it... heh, MOST of them (who voted for it) are still finding out what's ACTUALLY in it. I know that union pension funds/benefits are in BIG trouble, our local just dodged a BIG bullet last year as our pension fund was almost to the point where the Fed would have taken over it because it was too low (insolvent), but during contract negotiations all "pay raises" were put towards that instead of our paychecks... so we ultimately lost ground, while the thugs back East get to have there annual "meetings" in Vegas on our dime(s).

The MAIN reason I'm so against the healthcare bill is because it's NOT about taking care of people, its a cover story so the unions can shift their financial burdens onto the tax payers and so left-wing extremists can FINALLY exert their ideolgy on "the masses"... talk about "special interests"!! My wife is Australian, they have "socialized" medicine over there and everyone seems to really like it, and from what I can see it's fairly well squared away, but the thing is their systems IS about taking care of healthcare, while our impending one is not.... its about "not wasting a perfectly good crisis".

Good points, but it is no secret who had the largest hand in this new law, it was Big Pharma, Big Insurance, and Large Providers, who were brought in early, each given a piece of the pie with the understanding that they wouldn't fight the bill much.

I would imagine a lot of X union employees will be getting government susidies for their health care insurance, but so will lots of other people.

I'm not sure how much our current health care system is about taking care of people vs. taking care of the business, but I don't see how this new law is going to change what we have now. If it was possible to create a system here that would be 'about the care', it would take a long time as the for personal gain and profit aspects of our current system are in the hearts and minds of the participants. And I don't blame them for that, we all want to be rich and have great things. It jsut seems if we don't do something the only people who have a shot anymore at that American Dream are going to be investment bankers or workers associated with health care. The rest of us are having to live in the real world of no pay raises, few jobs, lost wealth on our houses, and increasing costs of nearly everything.

Things need to be brought back into balance, but I'm not sure this law will do that, time will tell. I'm am sure it is the best we could get politcally, and that isn't saying much since the foxes were not only left to watch the henhouse, they got to design it.

 

[bugeye]

The government is not providing insurance...instead the government is requiring private citizens, for the first time our government is DEMANDING at point of law that we buy something, health insurance....but somehow we are not supposed to buy into the government control of insurance industry.

Further, when prices go up...as they surely will when a company has a built in "audience" for their services...(and a mandated audience at that) will government let them do that to whatever price point they see fit?

Or will government control the prices they are allowed to charge?

I think they will do the latter, because rising prices won't be popular, because they think it's their right, and because they actually believe they have the ability. ...of course, they do not.

How is it that government can control who buys what, and who gets paid, and how much...but it is not government insurance?

Yes. It is government insurance. They simply lie and hide behind the smoke and mirrors of their subterfuge. Looters.


That progs/libs should have guns is not surprising. It gives them momentary creedence in an overwhelmingly conservative base...they can appear to support parts of the Constitution while undermining it.

Glenn Beck is a little overly dramatic. Glen Beck speaks the truth FAR more than those who mock him.
GO GLEN BECK!


.

This admin made deals with big health care before the bill was even started. Not all has been disclosed and much of the economic sucess of this law lies in these details. This law does make health insurance into a utility and I suspect it is the treat of direct price regulation that will keep the players in line. Of course they could buck the trend, but I found it more than suspicious that some of the insurance companies asked for huge price increases in regulated markets before the final push for this bill was made. I'm not much for conspiracy but wasn't that a nice coincidence for the dems?

I think utility is the key term here, and you could see how utilies are regulated. Insurance is regulated in Oregon but the tiny office we have can't really cope with the volume of the job (just in car insurance several dozen players with 200 different pricing structures based on this, that and a credit score), so it is pretty much not regulated. Utility regulation stopped Oregon from being sucked dry the way California was by ENRON, so it can be a very good thing. But you wouldn't say PGE or your garbage companiy is a government utility, right?

Besides this web site I don't know where your overwhelming conservative base is hiding, they aren't showing up in the polls.

When you guys wrap yourself in the constitution do you ever notice a draft, after all, 12 pages can't cover much.

Beck is in the business of brainwashing his viewers and he is well paid for it by his masters.

 

[mudnducs]

Good points, but it is no secret who had the largest hand in this new law, it was Big Pharma, Big Insurance, and Large Providers, who were brought in early, each given a piece of the pie with the understanding that they wouldn't fight the bill much.

I would imagine a lot of X union employees will be getting government susidies for their health care insurance, but so will lots of other people.

I'm not sure how much our current health care system is about taking care of people vs. taking care of the business, but I don't see how this new law is going to change what we have now. If it was possible to create a system here that would be 'about the care', it would take a long time as the for personal gain and profit aspects of our current system are in the hearts and minds of the participants. And I don't blame them for that, we all want to be rich and have great things. It jsut seems if we don't do something the only people who have a shot anymore at that American Dream are going to be investment bankers or workers associated with health care. The rest of us are having to live in the real world of no pay raises, few jobs, lost wealth on our houses, and increasing costs of nearly everything.

Things need to be brought back into balance, but I'm not sure this law will do that, time will tell. I'm am sure it is the best we could get politcally, and that isn't saying much since the foxes were not only left to watch the henhouse, they got to design it.

"Big Pharma, Big Insurance, and Large Providers" are the root of this bologna?!! HelLOO?!!!

Pelosi......just 'cleaning out the swamp' Pelosi?
Reid?
OBAMA....I like to spread it aroooound a little' OBAMA?!!!!

Are you saying radical Dems/socialists/progreeeesives are carrying water for big business?!!!!

Unbelievable..............the sad fact is that it is progressives who believe (as we see here) it's OK so long as "each given a piece of the pie with the understanding that they wouldn't fight the bill much."

AS IF IT IS THEIRS TO GIVE!

Time to clean house fellas. Fire them all this fall.


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