Guy takes 5 shots before being killed by a headshot.

[40calruler]

I would never want to be the guy to take a clean shot at a bad guy and kill a person behind a thin wall a ways away I never knew existed until it is too late.

 

[Ttuck]

I am curious if you take a dead on shot and hit your target and there a people a decent distance back will it still have the speed and force to shoot that innocent person 200 yards back?

I am not sure about it's ballistics after exiting a target. I guess that would depend on what part of the body hit, IE soft tissue plus bone and what bone it did hit or if it just hit soft tissue. I am not an expert on the ballistics of the various 5.56 and .223 rounds out there..

 

[Blitzkrieg]

To what degree as I do not own a AR and have only shot my Cousins a few times. I ask because his brother my other cousin was a Army Ranger and West Point grad that spent a lot of time in Iraq and in Afghanistan and told me that the over penetration of the 556 was disturbing and something that they are working on to try and avoid the deaths of people that are way behind a target...Wont go into more details and will not talk much about his activities. I have considered buying one but how bad is the over penetration really? Seemed bad enough that he had seen enough innocent people die that he did not want to even talk about it other than to say it is a round that should be worked on a lot. I am a pistol guy and the most rifle I shoot is a .357 magnum as i bought it so I can camp and fish and carry a revolver and rifle and only kind of ammo. Gotta say I love that rifle and know a .357 well but am totally ignorant on the 556 ballistics.

It definitely happens. The 5.56 can easily range out to 700 yards with lethal power, and this has convinced me to stay with soft and hollowpoints or fire sparingly in an urban setting even with 5.56. Most of our storage ammo is M855 steel core, but I won't bring out that or my heavy hard cast 12 GA slugs, a 7.62 NATO or even a 7.62 x 39 unless it's a sudden zombie apocalypse where they are using vehicles or cover.. I do have a conscience and it does matter what we do in this regard

You will be greatly educated by going thru this site and it's many fun but educational tests. For instance the .357 has just about/almost the same wallboard penetration as a 5.56

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

 

[Flopsweat]

There is .223 and 5.56 ammunition specifically designed for home defense and it doesn't have a big problem with overpenetration. Our military doesn't use this stuff because we signed the Hague convention, part of which forbids expanding bullets:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

Instead they are using rounds that tumble and fragment. It can take a few inches for the tumbling to start, and if you shoot a really skinny guy front-on, the round can still exit with considerable velocity (and often not do much to the bad guy).

Meantime, you and I can use hollowpoints and there are some great ones out there. I've heard that there are some .223 SD rounds that will actually exit double drywall at a lower velocity that most handgun ammo.

 

[Certaindeaf]

What's this rifle business got to do with anything? I think you need a three inch ball according to Thompson-LaGarde.

 

[40calruler]

It definitely happens. The 5.56 can easily range out to 700 yards with lethal power, and this has convinced me to stay with soft and hollowpoints or fire sparingly in an urban setting even with 5.56. Most of our storage ammo is M855 steel core, but I won't bring out that or my heavy hard cast 12 GA slugs, a 7.62 NATO or even a 7.62 x 39 unless it's a sudden zombie apocalypse where they are using vehicles or cover.. I do have a conscience and it does matter what we do in this regard

You will be greatly educated by going thru this site and it's many fun but educational tests. For instance the .357 has just about/almost the same wallboard penetration as a 5.56

The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 1

I know in the rifle the .357 goes up at least a couple hundred fps in speed so penitration would be a large concern which is why with a family I always use my shotgun as my go to first line of defense. I know it is not perfectly safe but it is better than any pistols I have of various calibers in the event of shooting a intruder with a wall behind them. That link shows that his 5.56 is for sure moving at lethal momentum through at least a few walls...Considering Pine boards are much stronger than sheet rock I would definitely consider it a highly lethal round to anyone in even somewhat close proximity. Same with the pistol rounds he fired..even the .22lr

 

[Certaindeaf]

Yea, .45acp sucks like a dog.

 

[AMT]

About 5 blocks from my house, a guy is sitting in a car waiting for his new girlfriend to come out of the store. A guy walks up to his window (which was down) and at point blank range shoots him with a 1911 style, 45ACP. 2 shots in the leg, 1 in a lung, 1 in the stomach, 1 in the shoulder and 1 bounced off his skull. Yea, 45ACP may not be the greatest. Not to stir any more caliber vs. stopping power arguments....

 

[40calruler]

About 5 blocks from my house, a guy is sitting in a car waiting for his new girlfriend to come out of the store. A guy walks up to his window (which was down) and at point blank range shoots him with a 1911 style, 45ACP. 2 shots in the leg, 1 in a lung, 1 in the stomach, 1 in the shoulder and 1 bounced off his skull. Yea, 45ACP may not be the greatest. Not to stir any more caliber vs. stopping power arguments....

I do not think that is a caliber argument that is just sad and messed up. Would have been the same bad guy with any caliber. Sad that these days you cannot just sit and wait for your wife/girlfriend and be safe. I am ultra paranoid after being jumped a couple times working downtown and when I am sitting in a parking lot waiting for any reason I have a .380 under my leg. Yes as the thread started reads I am paranoid but I have learned that not needing it is a lot better than not having it. Shady guy walked up to my window asking for change and my hand was on the gun before he was 10 feet away clearly coming to me. He was just a harmless homeless guy but if he pulled I like to think I had the quicker draw.

 

[40calruler]

There is .223 and 5.56 ammunition specifically designed for home defense and it doesn't have a big problem with overpenetration. Our military doesn't use this stuff because we signed the Hague convention, part of which forbids expanding bullets:

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

Instead they are using rounds that tumble and fragment. It can take a few inches for the tumbling to start, and if you shoot a really skinny guy front-on, the round can still exit with considerable velocity (and often not do much to the bad guy).

Meantime, you and I can use hollowpoints and there are some great ones out there. I've heard that there are some .223 SD rounds that will actually exit double drywall at a lower velocity that most handgun ammo.

I believe that is what my cuz must mean when he says they are and need to be working on the caliber. I was not aware that hollow points are not allowed. He is a awesome guy but something messed him up or a lot of things did over there and not talking about that stuff makes it worse. Like I said he just claimed it was not a proper round to use in a civilian setting which is why I asked you guys about the round. The info Blitz gave was helpful as those rounds clearing the sheets of pine and going who knows how far says a lot about the penetration.

 

[Flopsweat]

I believe that is what my cuz must mean when he says they are and need to be working on the caliber. I was not aware that hollow points are not allowed. He is a awesome guy but something messed him up or a lot of things did over there and not talking about that stuff makes it worse. Like I said he just claimed it was not a proper round to use in a civilian setting which is why I asked you guys about the round. The info Blitz gave was helpful as those rounds clearing the sheets of pine and going who knows how far says a lot about the penetration.

I hope your buddy can find some peace. Please thank him for us.

Home defense ammunition is a subject that has been covered here over and over. Rifle ammunition can be had with any level of penetration from steel core that will go through cinder block all the way down to varmint rounds that won't exit a milk carton. Saying that one particular bullet design penetrates too much doesn't have any bearing on another.

But here's the real issue - no round, be it from a handgun, pistol or shotgun, will be completely safe in terms of penetration and still be acceptably effective on a bad guy. The FBI recommends 12 to 18 inches of penetration and they seem to know what they are talking about. Depending on the angle of entry and the physical build of the target, there may not be 18" of bad guy to soak up all of the energy in your round. And certainly any round that will penetrate a body that deeply will penetrate a wall as well. You're not going to find that magic cartridge because it doesn't exist. But .223/5.56 is not any more dangerous than handgun ammo if you pick it carefully. The best you can do is to choose the firearm you're most comfortable with, find the ammunition best suited to the application (and train of course) and be aware of your backdrop. You can find more detailed recommendations and links to more penetration tests in this post: http://www.northwestfirearms.com/general-firearm-discussion/149960-i-want-rifle-3.html#post973681

 

[40calruler]

I hope your buddy can find some peace. Please thank him for us.

Home defense ammunition is a subject that has been covered here over and over. Rifle ammunition can be had with any level of penetration from steel core that will go through cinder block all the way down to varmint rounds that won't exit a milk carton. Saying that one particular bullet design penetrates too much doesn't have any bearing on another.

But here's the real issue - no round, be it from a handgun, pistol or shotgun, will be completely safe in terms of penetration and still be acceptably effective on a bad guy. The FBI recommends 12 to 18 inches of penetration and they seem to know what they are talking about. Depending on the angle of entry and the physical build of the target, there may not be 18" of bad guy to soak up all of the energy in your round. And certainly any round that will penetrate a body that deeply will penetrate a wall as well. You're not going to find that magic cartridge because it doesn't exist. But .223/5.56 is not any more dangerous than handgun ammo if you pick it carefully. The best you can do is to choose the firearm you're most comfortable with, find the ammunition best suited to the application (and train of course) and be aware of your backdrop. You can find more detailed recommendations and links to more penetration tests in this post: http://www.northwestfirearms.com/general-firearm-discussion/149960-i-want-rifle-3.html#post973681

Thanks for the kind words about my Cousin and the helpful link. I know handgun ballistics well as that is what I have shot my whole life and know that the bullet is going through walls with anything to a point and I try to buy the most effective defensive ammo I can for my pistols. I am just not a rifle guy so the link helps a lot. I have a 30.06 I rarely shoot that my grandfather in law gave me. I realize it is far more powerful than most rifles and really keep it for the paranoid purpose of an event that causes the need for me to provide and hunt for my family. The AR seems to be a lot of folks go to defense rifle and I may get one and as I said before learn to use it well and then store it for something that I hope never happens aside from when I take it out to practice and clean it.