Northwest Gun Stolen from Vehicle - is Owner Responsible for a Shooting?

[Koda]

The car analogy is tired because we largely don't use guns for everyday tasks.

Not only that, but the safety of something is best represented by the amount of use vs. the instances of death or injury. Guns don't get used for much of anything everyday, unless you count passively carrying them. So when you compare millions of hours of transportation time vs thousands of target shooting/hunting/policing time, the deaths per hour are probably not so great sounding for guns.

So most people are not going to buy the idea that cars are more dangerous in use than guns.

That's reality. We shouldn't apologize for guns being deadly when misused. They are deadly weapons for good reason.

admit I prefer to avoid using analogies but disagree that we (society) dont use guns every day. If most people are not going to buy the idea that cars are more dangerous then that's a product of media bias and anti gun propaganda downplaying the analogy with cars. Defensive Gun Usage is roughly 64,000 incidents annually... on the low end estimate. Gun control statistics never include this fact of course.... it might offset that usage vs instances idea.
You sure do seem to have a lot of arguments against guns....

 

[RX-79G]

For once I agree with you. And we can thank the ACLU et al. who sued on behalf of such people and made it nearly impossible to commit them involuntarily, as well as the various courts that decided their "rights" superseded the general welfare.

Reagan is usually given some credit.

Some people do. Those who are raised without a moral compass. On the other hand, there are some people who are raised believing there is a higher power than government, and do not look to government to dictate their morals.

And yet so many want the government to dictate their personal morals on those who don't share them. It's a tightrope.

But I do think that the adherence to law and order has recently been shown to be a thing of convenience rather than morality, easily discarded when law and order are contrary to desire.

 

[RX-79G]

admit I prefer to avoid using analogies but disagree that we (society) dont use guns every day. If most people are not going to buy the idea that cars are more dangerous then that's a product of media bias and anti gun propaganda downplaying the analogy with cars. Defensive Gun Usage is roughly 64,000 incidents annually... on the low end estimate. Gun control statistics never include this fact of course.... it might offset that usage vs instances idea.
You sure do seem to have a lot of arguments against guns....

I have plenty of arguments for guns, but I try to avoid poor ones. Poor arguments make all gun arguments weak by association.

Defensive use is a good one. But the guns used in those incidents weren't logging millions of hours of activity prior to their use. You wouldn't fly in an airplane model that has only one crash, but only one hour of cumulative flight time. For the amount of time we actively use cars, they are relatively safe. The safest aircraft aren't the one with the fewest overall crashes, but the best ratios of flight time vs. crashes.

Ladders are much more dangerous. Rarely used, falling often. Guns are clearly safer than ladders. Falls are the #1 unintentional injury death. Yet people don't need to be up high very much, so this is a better comparison to gun use.

 

[Cavedweller]

Reagan is usually given some credit.

I knew that was coming. Actually, the national trend away from institutionalization started way before Reagan. If you want to pin it on a single individual, it would have to be Geraldo Rivera, and his 1972 hit piece on mental health treatment in NY (the Willowbrook scandal). That started the ball rolling, and then it snowballed with the novel and 1975 movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." All Reagan did was sign legislation passed by Congress, but because he is unpopular in certain quarters, he is a convenient scapegoat.

Willowbrook, the institution that shocked a nation into changing its laws

Patients needing “tenderness and affection” got the opposite

timeline.com

 

[Koda]

I have plenty of arguments for guns, but I try to avoid poor ones. Poor arguments make all gun arguments weak by association.

Defensive use is a good one. But the guns used in those incidents weren't logging millions of hours of activity prior to their use. You wouldn't fly in an airplane model that has only one crash, but only one hour of cumulative flight time. For the amount of time we actively use cars, they are relatively safe. The safest aircraft aren't the one with the fewest overall crashes, but the best ratios of flight time vs. crashes.

Ladders are much more dangerous. Rarely used, falling often. Guns are clearly safer than ladders. Falls are the #1 unintentional injury death. Yet people don't need to be up high very much, so this is a better comparison to gun use.

As far as guns not logging millions of hours I disagree. By design, just owning one and having it available is using it for its intended purpose. Its not really a true analogy to compare usage by hours of activity.
If we subtract DGUs from the total "gun violence" statistics then anti gun argument falls apart. Take away suicide by gun and they got almost nothing left.

I do agree to avoid using poor arguments and appreciate the intellectual approach, though maybe somethings going over my head im just not seeing a progun argument yet from your position.

 

[Unicykle]

Those are legal terms, speaking about how the law works in a courtroom. And I used them to explain how the law already works, not what laws should exist.

Sounds like you're pegging wrong.

Its also the same terms the liberal left use to try and trick the sheep into voting their rights away.

 

[RX-79G]

Its also the same terms the liberal left use to try and trick the sheep into voting their rights away.

So?

 

[dangerranger60]

Maybe I know how to not lose a gun.


You are correct. Stolen guns account for 10-15% of crime. My mistake.

But I didn't say anyone should be criminally liable. I just don't think you're much of a victim if you know about car prowls and you acted like it wouldn't happen to you. Or that it isn't your problem.


If your gun is stolen, you KNOW it is now in the hands of criminals, and criminals with guns do violent things. Why wouldn't you want to officially make it clear that anything that happens afterwards with your gun isn't you? When you sell a gun, don't you keep of record of who you sold it to? Every time on the news some guy's wife is killed and they ask him where his gun is, he suddenly remembers it was stolen. Juries love that answer.


Both in the real world and law, there is the concept of the reasonable man and foreseeability. Would a reasonable person expect that a safe and locked front door weren't adequate? Of course not. That's a lot of protection for a criminal to bother with. How about a tempered glass side window and a trunk release button? Not so much.


Doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is if you did a reasonable job with the things you can control. And if the majority of us took responsibility - instead of playing the blame game - we wouldn't have to worry about whether you'll get in trouble for making your gun easy to steal.

And if it is stolen anyway, no one is going to prosecute the guy whose gun had to be cut out of the car with a die grinder. These scenarios aren't reality, even in the most leftist places. Prosecutors have better things to do than make the law seem like a trap for anyone trying to comply. It's bad optics and unlikely to convince a jury.


I don't leave unsecured guns in the car. I also don't leave anything else of much value, either. It's just not smart. I've known a ton of people that have lost nice bicycles, backpacks, computers, house keys (registration has your address), etc out of locked cars. Be smart.

This is BS, you are simply blaming another victim of crime because the criminal used it in another crime! You are trying to tip toe around the criminal having to break into a home and steal a gun is somehow different than breaking into a car and stealing a gun.
Your opinion is that an owner of a deadly weapon should have to go to greater lengths to secure his gun that to secure his car! Even tho both are deadly in the wrong hands.
I am for personal responsibility! The Criminal should be held personally responsible for their own actions! Stop blaming the victims!

 

[RX-79G]

I am for personal responsibility!

No, you aren't. Guns getting in the wrong hands is a problem in our society. As a citizen you should be invested in fixing problems, not ducking responsibility for your small role in them.

Since when did "personal responsibility" become code for "not my problem".

None of which has anything to do with punishment. Be responsible. Be a citizen.

 

[Koda]

No, you aren't. Guns getting in the wrong hands is a problem in our society. As a citizen you should be invested in fixing problems, not ducking responsibility for your small role in them.

Since when did "personal responsibility" become code for "not my problem".

None of which has anything to do with punishment. Be responsible. Be a citizen.

except nobody, not one gun owner, has any role in guns getting in the wrong hands. Thats just demonstrably false. And to blame gun owners for stolen guns is an anti gun position.

 

[Black Dog]

RX-79G is just a troll quit enabling.

 

[RX-79G]

except nobody, not one gun owner, has any role in guns getting in the wrong hands. Thats just demonstrably false. And to blame gun owners for stolen guns is an anti gun position.

For this philosophy to have merit, every member of society needs to behave in a predictable way. That means most people do the right thing, and those tempted to do the wrong thing are either deterred by the chances of going to jail or will go to jail and no longer be a problem once locked up. Everyone is held responsible, so everything works.

Except kids, idiots and the insane don't think like that. They don't weigh consequences, they might not be held responsible if caught, and they may not care what happens to them. And that is a lot of people, which is why we have a lot of violent crime and negligence that really doesn't make a lot of sense.

That group is not really capable of personal responsibility. They can't do it, they can't be held to it. They are more like a force of nature. Not Giving fools or nutjobs easy access to your guns is little different than boarding your windows when the hurricane is coming - and helping board up your neighbors' windows as well. You are doing what needs to be done to keep you and your neighbors safe from the non-adults in our society. So you can complain that it isn't your fault, but it is still your problem. Making your guns easy to steal is no different than ignoring the hurricane warning.

 

[Koda]

For this philosophy to have merit, every member of society needs to behave in a predictable way. That means most people do the right thing, and those tempted to do the wrong thing are either deterred by the chances of going to jail or will go to jail and no longer be a problem once locked up. Everyone is held responsible, so everything works.

Except kids, idiots and the insane don't think like that. They don't weigh consequences, they might not be held responsible if caught, and they may not care what happens to them. And that is a lot of people, which is why we have a lot of violent crime and negligence that really doesn't make a lot of sense.

That group is not really capable of personal responsibility. They can't do it, they can't be held to it. They are more like a force of nature. Not Giving fools or nutjobs easy access to your guns is little different than boarding your windows when the hurricane is coming - and helping board up your neighbors' windows as well. You are doing what needs to be done to keep you and your neighbors safe from the non-adults in our society. So you can complain that it isn't your fault, but it is still your problem. Making your guns easy to steal is no different than ignoring the hurricane warning.

except nobody's making their guns easy to steal. people travel, cars have locks. So do homes. Nobody wants their guns stolen and that's a fact. Nobody is responsible for their stolen guns except the criminal, and that's a fact. To put the blame on the crime victim is a false cause fallacy, and there in is nothing but anti-gun propaganda because its impossible to control criminal element, inevitably someones gonna get their gun stolen no matter how "fort knox" responsible they were.... so therefor people shouldn't own guns since it cant be done responsibly.

 

[RX-79G]

except nobody's making their guns easy to steal. people travel, cars have locks. So do homes. Nobody wants their guns stolen and that's a fact. Nobody is responsible for their stolen guns except the criminal, and that's a fact. To put the blame on the crime victim is a false cause fallacy, and there in is nothing but anti-gun propaganda because its impossible to control criminal element, inevitably someones gonna get their gun stolen no matter how "fort knox" responsible they were.... so therefor people shouldn't own guns since it cant be done responsibly.

You're just repeating yourself. If locking the gun in the car was effective, people wouldn't get guns stolen out of cars as often as they do. I've been on various gun boards for over 20 years, and a ton of people have admitted they have gotten their guns stolen from their cars, and a ton more that lost other valuables. I don't know why we have to keep pretending it is a safe place to store anything of value, or anything dangerous.

It is almost as if this very simple idea - that cars are easy to steal from - has become such a political hot potato that even the most obvious bit of reality has to be denied lest your loyalty be questioned.

When are we going to start leaving our houses unlocked because its not our fault if someone breaks in? Screw reality - it just isn't PC.

 

[Koda]

You're just repeating yourself. If locking the gun in the car was effective, people wouldn't get guns stolen out of cars as often as they do. I've been on various gun boards for over 20 years, and a ton of people have admitted they have gotten their guns stolen from their cars, and a ton more that lost other valuables. I don't know why we have to keep pretending it is a safe place to store anything of value, or anything dangerous.

It is almost as if this very simple idea - that cars are easy to steal from - has become such a political hot potato that even the most obvious bit of reality has to be denied lest your loyalty be questioned.

When are we going to start leaving our houses unlocked because its not our fault if someone breaks in? Screw reality - it just isn't PC.

except weve already established that the majority of illegal guns are acquired thru straw purchases. And that lawful people need to travel with their guns and nobody ever said it was ideal to leave one in a car. In the end its nobodys fault but the criminal and thats reality.

 

[RX-79G]

except weve already established that the majority of illegal guns are acquired thru straw purchases. And that lawful people need to travel with their guns and nobody ever said it was ideal to leave one in a car. In the end its nobodys fault but the criminal and thats reality.

The fact that it is the criminal's fault doesn't mean the victim couldn't have done more to prevent a crime that hurts all of us. It leads to more violence, more car prowls, more insurance claims and more laws. So why is suggesting that leaving you unlocked gun in the car is poor personal security tantamount to repealing 2A?

Because of this weird PC thing that is taking us over.

And BTW, "victim blaming" is a feminist term invented for rape victims. But I'm the one who has to be careful how I pick my words?

 

[Koda]

The fact that it is the criminal's fault doesn't mean the victim couldn't have done more to prevent a crime that hurts all of us. It leads to more violence, more car prowls, more insurance claims and more laws. So why is suggesting that leaving you unlocked gun in the car is poor personal security tantamount to repealing 2A?

Because of this weird PC thing that is taking us over.

And BTW, "victim blaming" is a feminist term invented for rape victims. But I'm the one who has to be careful how I pick my words?

we covered this circular argument already but who said anything about leaving an unlocked gun in a car?

 

[Koda]

@RX-79G rather than continue your circular arguments I have a fair question for you. Rather than spending the energy and resources enforcing new laws that make the victim liable we spend the same energy doubling the consequences for the criminal?

 

[billdeserthills]

You're just repeating yourself. If locking the gun in the car was effective, people wouldn't get guns stolen out of cars as often as they do. I've been on various gun boards for over 20 years, and a ton of people have admitted they have gotten their guns stolen from their cars, and a ton more that lost other valuables. I don't know why we have to keep pretending it is a safe place to store anything of value, or anything dangerous.

It is almost as if this very simple idea - that cars are easy to steal from - has become such a political hot potato that even the most obvious bit of reality has to be denied lest your loyalty be questioned.

When are we going to start leaving our houses unlocked because its not our fault if someone breaks in? Screw reality - it just isn't PC.

Out here every house has lots of windows with piles of rocks right outside, every criminal that wants in is in

Are you aware the ATF considers safe handgun storage in a gun store to be inside a glass case?

The glass in my car is at least as good as that of a federally required storage method--seems like that should be good enough

 

[billdeserthills]

The fact that it is the criminal's fault doesn't mean the victim couldn't have done more to prevent a crime that hurts all of us. It leads to more violence, more car prowls, more insurance claims and more laws. So why is suggesting that leaving you unlocked gun in the car is poor personal security tantamount to repealing 2A?

Because of this weird PC thing that is taking us over.

And BTW, "victim blaming" is a feminist term invented for rape victims. But I'm the one who has to be careful how I pick my words?

I have an annoying lefty cousin & you're starting to sound like her-- just an observation, not critiquing your work