Northwest Gun Stolen from Vehicle - is Owner Responsible for a Shooting?

[Koda]

Then don't use a stupid CA lock box. Put a bike cable or U-lock through the trigger guard of your pistol or rifle.

And that will take a lot more to get into than the rock required to open a car.

If you do the right thing no one is going to have to write a law to punish irresponsibility.

So yiur saying if I dont use a bike cable or ulock im irresponsible even though I used a CA approved lock cable box?
Who gets to define whats appropriate here?
Smashed windows and stripped door locks notwithstanding?

 

[Flopsweat]

It's irresponsible to leave your gun where it is likely to be discovered and/or taken. It is quite possible to avoid both of these while still storing it in a car. Like the old adage goes "It ain't what you do; It's how you do it."

I think the law referenced earlier is a bit much. Most places already have similar laws like "constructive nuisance" or whatever. I'm not saying that that specific law covers any specific case mentioned here. Laws are different in different places. I'm saying we have enough gun laws already and this one will, like so many before it, have no measurable effect.

 

[RX-79G]

So yiur saying if I dont use a bike cable or ulock im irresponsible even though I used a CA approved lock cable box?
Who gets to define whats appropriate here?
Smashed windows and stripped door locks notwithstanding?

I'm not talking about your bare minimum legal responsibility, but being a smart and responsible custodian of your deadly weapons.

also.. seems the requirement to report and the right against self incrimination are at odds on this one... probs dont pass the constitutionality test. if my gun wasnt locked, id be self incriminating if i reported it was stolen ... which im not required to do.. soooooo

This is like saying you have no responsibility to report hitting a pedestrian or render aid because it will incriminate you.

Can we act like citizens, people?

 

[Southpaw]

What if youre leaving youre gun in the car because you HAVE to because you have to go into a federal, state, or otherwise non permissive building/place

Exactly the case last month when I visited the John Day Fossil museum. But figured the parking lot had enough cameras and fewer people so it would be OK

 

[Koda]

I'm not talking about your bare minimum legal responsibility, but being a smart and responsible custodian of your deadly weapons.

But the problem is there isnt really a definition of whats the minimum safe. This law affects me, regardless of the fact I use some of the more expensive lock boxes... Makes me a criminal for the actions of others.
Nobodys leaving their guns on the dashboards, id agree with ya otherwise. If someone reasonably hides their guns in a locked car they shouldnt have any responsibility what the criminal does.

 

[RX-79G]

If someone reasonably hides their guns in a locked car they shouldnt have any responsibility what the criminal

Because you don't believe cars are quickly and easily broken in to, or your society is not your responsibility?

The vast majority of guns used in street crime come from us; "responsible" gun owners.

 

[Black Dog]

I have a 1999 Tahoe with a cable lock box and a Rotweiller in the back that does not like her stuff messed with.

 

[The B]

I'm not talking about your bare minimum legal responsibility, but being a smart and responsible custodian of your deadly weapons.


This is like saying you have no responsibility to report hitting a pedestrian or render aid because it will incriminate you.

Can we act like citizens, people?

One instance is purely compliance and makes absolutely zero difference if you comply or not. the other, you've actually been involved directly in some kind of harm and have both moral and legal duty to stick around. but here's the kicker - i'm still under no obligation to SAY anything, even involved in an accident. i can stand there and remain silent until the injured party is given my insurance information or i'm taken into custody and charged with a crime. which will be less likely, given that i havent said anything.

do you actually think reporting a gun stolen does anything? what does it accomplish, aside from weakly enforcing the private transfer background check?

 

[RX-79G]

do you actually think reporting a gun stolen does anything? what does it accomplish, aside from weakly

It pre-exonerates you when your gun is found at a murder.

 

[ronin223]

Because you don't believe cars are quickly and easily broken in to, or your society is not your responsibility?

The vast majority of guns used in street crime come from us; "responsible" gun owners.

Maybe YOU should not own guns. You would not want to be responsible for a street crime.

 

[The B]

It pre-exonerates you when your gun is found at a murder.

if you wanna get into the eternity of hypothetical risk mitigators, i can easily turn that one around and say that if investigators have ANY reason to think you were involved, having reported it as stolen will be used as evidence of premeditated murder. now your 15 year sentence just went to life.

 

[Koda]

Because you don't believe cars are quickly and easily broken in to, or your society is not your responsibility?

The vast majority of guns used in street crime come from us; "responsible" gun owners.

Cant say I agree cars are easily broken into as much as they are commonly broken into. Semantics notwithstanding, car break ins are not the same as taking responsibility for others actions. If you want to talk about the merits of what constitutes "safe storage" when traveling great, pass a law saying lock boxes are required. But dont make people responsible for the actions of others, especially criminals.

 

[Koda]

The vast majority of guns used in street crime come from us; "responsible" gun owners.

no the vast majority of illegal guns come thru straw purchases, only a small percentage are stolen from homes or cars.

Saying that a victim of theft should be criminally liable for the actions of the crook later is like saying gun manufacturers should be liable for crimes comitted with guns... oh wait, people are voting for that too.

 

[dangerranger60]

I think leaving a gun in a car is dumb. You are a victim of your own foolishness when it is stolen.

What happened to personal responsibility?

So will you be personally responsible if your gun is stolen from your home? From a locked safe?
If your car was stolen and the thief crashed into a bus full of Nuns and school kids, are you responsible for their deaths?

Not according to CA law. DR

 

[parallax]

Ya went to the range a couple of weeks ago, range requires gun stay in the case, ( long rifle ) so not really knowing the new Oregon law, i just put locks on the case for travel to the range. I stopped at the convenient store on the way to the range to get a soft drink. should i have cable locked the case to the truck?. cable locked the truck to the parking pole out front?. seems like every new gun law is slowly strangling us.

 

[osprey]

Would if I had a cordless side grinder with a skinny cut off wheel stolen from my locked vehicle by a thief. Said thief then breaks into your vehicle and uses my tool to defeat your common sense secured pistol storage system and steals your gun. Not being particularly fazed by laws the thief then breaks into my house and shoots me with your pistol when I go to investigate. Who's fault is it that I am dead. By some peoples logic it would be my own fault for not locking up such a powerful tool or maybe my family sues Lowe's or Dewalt. JHC folks, get a grip it is the thieves fault. Nanny state will not solve our problems!

 

[RX-79G]

Maybe YOU should not own guns. You would not want to be responsible for a street crime.

Maybe I know how to not lose a gun.

no the vast majority of illegal guns come thru straw purchases, only a small percentage are stolen from homes or cars.

Saying that a victim of theft should be criminally liable for the actions of the crook later is like saying gun manufacturers should be liable for crimes comitted with guns... oh wait, people are voting for that too.

You are correct. Stolen guns account for 10-15% of crime. My mistake.

But I didn't say anyone should be criminally liable. I just don't think you're much of a victim if you know about car prowls and you acted like it wouldn't happen to you. Or that it isn't your problem.

if you wanna get into the eternity of hypothetical risk mitigators, i can easily turn that one around and say that if investigators have ANY reason to think you were involved, having reported it as stolen will be used as evidence of premeditated murder. now your 15 year sentence just went to life.

If your gun is stolen, you KNOW it is now in the hands of criminals, and criminals with guns do violent things. Why wouldn't you want to officially make it clear that anything that happens afterwards with your gun isn't you? When you sell a gun, don't you keep of record of who you sold it to? Every time on the news some guy's wife is killed and they ask him where his gun is, he suddenly remembers it was stolen. Juries love that answer.

So will you be personally responsible if your gun is stolen from your home? From a locked safe?
If your car was stolen and the thief crashed into a bus full of Nuns and school kids, are you responsible for their deaths?

Both in the real world and law, there is the concept of the reasonable man and foreseeability. Would a reasonable person expect that a safe and locked front door weren't adequate? Of course not. That's a lot of protection for a criminal to bother with. How about a tempered glass side window and a trunk release button? Not so much.

Would if I had a cordless side grinder with a skinny cut off wheel stolen from my locked vehicle by a thief. Said thief then breaks into your vehicle and uses my tool to defeat your common sense secured pistol storage system and steals your gun. Not being particularly fazed by laws the thief then breaks into my house and shoots me with your pistol when I go to investigate. Who's fault is it that I am dead. By some peoples logic it would be my own fault for not locking up such a powerful tool or maybe my family sues Lowe's or Dewalt. JHC folks, get a grip it is the thieves fault. Nanny state will not solve our problems!

Doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is if you did a reasonable job with the things you can control. And if the majority of us took responsibility - instead of playing the blame game - we wouldn't have to worry about whether you'll get in trouble for making your gun easy to steal.

And if it is stolen anyway, no one is going to prosecute the guy whose gun had to be cut out of the car with a die grinder. These scenarios aren't reality, even in the most leftist places. Prosecutors have better things to do than make the law seem like a trap for anyone trying to comply. It's bad optics and unlikely to convince a jury.


I don't leave unsecured guns in the car. I also don't leave anything else of much value, either. It's just not smart. I've known a ton of people that have lost nice bicycles, backpacks, computers, house keys (registration has your address), etc out of locked cars. Be smart.

 

[JohnnyMac]

If it happens in Oregon, the new law guarantees that the gun owner, victim of a theft, will be held responsible.

Initiative 1639 in WA state has similar requirements, however if you have a CPL, there is specific verbiage that states it is acceptable, while away from the car, to lock the handgun within the vehicle and conceal it from view. Nothing about an extra safe or cable lock, just out of view and doors locked.

 

[Koda]

But I didn't say anyone should be criminally liable. I just don't think you're much of a victim if you know about car prowls and you acted like it wouldn't happen to you. Or that it isn't your problem.

but thats what the law is saying, the law that your defending. its what the subject is now, the law makes the victim responsible for the actions of others.
Its pretty judgemental to say someone isnt a victim regardless of how well or greatly lacking they were about securing their possessions. Its a false presupposition to say a crime victim acted like it wouldnt happen to them.... I lock my car doors for one thing. Doors that are way more secure than a California approved gun lock box. This is why I keep asking, and nobody has given an answer.... who gets to define whats an acceptable means of securing a gun in a car and what should that be? A California compliant gun lock box with cable can be picked in a mintue with a paper clip.... what locking device is appropriate here and who gets to define that?
Everyone travels, everyone has to negotiate gun free zones... if I had my way I would never leave a gun in a car but its simply not possible. Maybe you never travel with a gun, or thought of all the possibilites that require leaving one in a car....
Ive had 2 vehicles broken into in my life, Ive never lost a gun. But what if someday I did? does that make me irresponsible and not caring? Why should I the victim have any legal consequesnces? Your position points fingers at responsible gun owners, not the person who committed the crime. To blame the gun owner for the criminal actions of others is literally a total gun prohibition model, because nobody can control the actions of others crime is a percentage of every society that has never changed.

 

[Koda]

Doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is if you did a reasonable job with the things you can control. And if the majority of us took responsibility - instead of playing the blame game - we wouldn't have to worry about whether you'll get in trouble for making your gun easy to steal.

The actual criminal doesn't matter? ....oh this ends the debate right here. Your the one blaming the victim now. Completely anti-gun position to make the gun owner responsible for the criminal.