Gun death statistics

[OldBroad44]

... Do you think a person wouldn't commit suicide if there were no guns?

I saw a study years ago that made a pretty good case as I recall that some suicides genuinely wouldn't have occurred except for the existence of guns. Not most. I think it was about a third of them. Don't remember the ref or even nature of the data. I think some factors involved were that most methods of committing suicide are perceived to take much more preparation, involve pain or extreme discomfort, or more fear, or can be interrupted. Basically, suicide by shooting yourself in the head is imagined to be doable on the spur of he moment, taking no elaborate prep, painless, and irreversible. (Actually more people live from shooting themselves in the head than one would think, adding brain damage and sometimes paralysis to their problems. But people mostly don't know that.)

Many suicide attempts by drug misuse or overdose, by comparison, require special knowledge. Too little and you don't die. Too much and you may vomit drug up. The death can be agony. Or dying of convulsions, very much aware as you drown in your own vomit. And there may be hours during which someone may find you before the effects are irreversible. I knew a college student who as a HS student had tried to kill himself by running hose from exhaust of car to interior. His parents came back before he died. He spent months in a coma and years in physical therapy learning to walk and talk again with his damaged brain. As for jumping, there aren't that many places that are good to jump from. And you might chicken out. And if you try to wrap your car around a tree you might live, maimed, scarred, and maybe paralyzed or missing one or more limbs.

 

[Koda]

Its way easier and impulsive to use a gun to commit suicide. I think its disingenuous to say that gun access doesn't impact suicide rates. I also think its disingenuous to say that suicides should be included with homicides and violence where guns are used.
Access to guns wouldnt be an issue if there wasnt a huge prohibition based movement, gun owners would be more open to safe storage options, e.g.: before background check laws people could have a trusted friend store guns for them while they worked out a stressful time.

 

[Lazyfaire]

I saw a study years ago that made a pretty good case as I recall that some suicides genuinely wouldn't have occurred except for the existence of guns. Not most. I think it was about a third of them. Don't remember the ref or even nature of the data. I think some factors involved were that most methods of committing suicide are perceived to take much more preparation, involve pain or extreme discomfort, or more fear, or can be interrupted. Basically, suicide by shooting yourself in the head is imagined to be doable on the spur of he moment, taking no elaborate prep, painless, and irreversible. (Actually more people live from shooting themselves in the head than one would think, adding brain damage and sometimes paralysis to their problems. But people mostly don't know that.)

Many suicide attempts by drug misuse or overdose, by comparison, require special knowledge. Too little and you don't die. Too much and you may vomit drug up. The death can be agony. Or dying of convulsions, very much aware as you drown in your own vomit. And there may be hours during which someone may find you before the effects are irreversible. I knew a college student who as a HS student had tried to kill himself by running hose from exhaust of car to interior. His parents came back before he died. He spent months in a coma and years in physical therapy learning to walk and talk again with his damaged brain. As for jumping, there aren't that many places that are good to jump from. And you might chicken out. And if you try to wrap your car around a tree you might live, maimed, scarred, and maybe paralyzed or missing one or more limbs.

I agree with many of the things you have said here. I think that most people try and explain just why someone would commit suicide, or to say how selfish (hate this word in this context!) they must have been. Many people who have these thoughts have mental issues. They are not crazy or insane or nuts. Anxiety or a chemical imbalance can often lead to these things. Usually the person has had these issues for quite some time.

(I am going to use a word here that should not be taken in a literal sense) It is very hard for a sane person (us) to understand what goes through an 'insane' person's mind at these times. We try to understand why someone can plan for the future one day and flip a switch and commit suicide the next. (My friend wrapped himself in heavy chains and padlocks and walked off the back of his boat.......) Why? I will never know that answer, at least not for a few more years.

Life sucks sometimes but most of us get through it, stumbling, but do get through it. He wasn't depressive at all. Try to figure it all out and you end up with nothing but head shaking. Those are my last words on this subject. thanks

 

[OldBroad44]

Its way easier and impulsive to use a gun to commit suicide. I think its disingenuous to say that gun access doesn't impact suicide rates. I also think its disingenuous to say that suicides should be included with homicides and violence where guns are used.
Access to guns wouldnt be an issue if there wasnt a huge prohibition based movement, gun owners would be more open to safe storage options, e.g.: before background check laws people could have a trusted friend store guns for them while they worked out a stressful time.

I agree. I think accidents, homicides, and suicides are all separate phenomena with different causes.

I agree with many of the things you have said here. I think that most people try and explain just why someone would commit suicide, or to say how selfish (hate this word in this context!) they must have been. Many people who have these thoughts have mental issues. They are not crazy or insane or nuts. Anxiety or a chemical imbalance can often lead to these things. Usually the person has had these issues for quite some time.

(I am going to use a word here that should not be taken in a literal sense) It is very hard for a sane person (us) to understand what goes through an 'insane' person's mind at these times. We try to understand why someone can plan for the future one day and flip a switch and commit suicide the next. (My friend wrapped himself in heavy chains and padlocks and walked off the back of his boat.......) Why? I will never know that answer, at least not for a few more years.

Life sucks sometimes but most of us get through it, stumbling, but do get through it. He wasn't depressive at all. Try to figure it all out and you end up with nothing but head shaking. Those are my last words on this subject. thanks

I agree that most sane people can't really relate to the mental state of someone suicidal. The student I mentioned who had tried to kill himself by auto exhaust told me there was nothing particularly wrong with his life at the time. His parents weren't monsters. He hadn't got dumped by a girlfriend. He wasn't having trouble with school. He'd just got depressed. And with some people withdrawal from all others is one of the symptoms of depression. And depression can make you more depressed. Nobody even knew he was depressed. But he was so depressed that every minute was an unbearable agony. Finally he couldn't bear it any more. He never even thought about what effect his death would have on his parents. He just wanted relief. Months later after he regained consciousness he was shocked and ashamed and horrified that he had never thought about his parents.

 

[nwslopoke]

The break down should be between actual children, adolescents and teens. Various studies also show drownings for children under 15 being #1 cause of death. Not ironically the years before gang violence take hold.

I wonder what the military feels about sending 18-19 yo children to war? Or businesses signing contracts with a 19 yo child?

I didn't see the breakdown by age but people backing over "children" seem to be a real problem. How many 16 yo are getting run over?

 

[joken]

HERE. Nice that it is the full study not behind a $35 paywall. Credit to them.

RESULTS:
In 2021, firearms continued to be the leading cause of death among US children. From 2018 to 2021, there was a 41.6% increase in the firearm death rate. In 2021, among children who died by firearms, 84.8% were male, 49.9% were Black, 82.6% were aged 15 to 19 years, and 64.3% died by homicide. Black children accounted for 67.3% of firearm homicides, with a death rate increase of 1.8 from 2020 to 2021. White children accounted for 78.4% of firearm suicides. From 2020 to 2021, the suicide rate increased among Black and white children, yet decreased among American Indian or Alaskan Native children. Geographically, there were worsening clusters of firearm death rates in Southern states and increasing rates in Midwestern states from 2018 to 2021. Across the United States, higher poverty levels correlated with higher firearm death rates (R = 0.76, P < .001).

Thanks, I didn't have time to search for it

I saw a study years ago that made a pretty good case as I recall that some suicides genuinely wouldn't have occurred except for the existence of guns. Not most. I think it was about a third of them. Don't remember the ref or even nature of the data. I think some factors involved were that most methods of committing suicide are perceived to take much more preparation, involve pain or extreme discomfort, or more fear, or can be interrupted. Basically, suicide by shooting yourself in the head is imagined to be doable on the spur of he moment, taking no elaborate prep, painless, and irreversible. (Actually more people live from shooting themselves in the head than one would think, adding brain damage and sometimes paralysis to their problems. But people mostly don't know that.)

Many suicide attempts by drug misuse or overdose, by comparison, require special knowledge. Too little and you don't die. Too much and you may vomit drug up. The death can be agony. Or dying of convulsions, very much aware as you drown in your own vomit. And there may be hours during which someone may find you before the effects are irreversible. I knew a college student who as a HS student had tried to kill himself by running hose from exhaust of car to interior. His parents came back before he died. He spent months in a coma and years in physical therapy learning to walk and talk again with his damaged brain. As for jumping, there aren't that many places that are good to jump from. And you might chicken out. And if you try to wrap your car around a tree you might live, maimed, scarred, and maybe paralyzed or missing one or more limbs.

This is slightly off the topic. We had a tenant commit suicide earlier this month and she used Helium. She used a small tank for inflating balloons. The helium displaces oxygen in your lungs almost immediately when inhaled under pressure. My wife befriended her because she knew she was having a rough time. She told my wife that her mother had trafficked her from age seven until sixteen if I remember correctly. It's hard to believe someone could be that evil.

 

[Bam]

it is crazy how if one specific race would stop murdering each other firearm homicides would drop by 87%

 

[Stomper]

I wonder what the military feels about sending 18-19 yo children to war?

I can tell you…. nothing.

You're an asset, a weapon of war, a means to an end, and they'll always want from you more & more.

 

[L84Cabo]

Ok... What's the skew? The report seems to be stating how many children died via firearm over a 3 year period, that's it. Whether they were shot in the head intentionally, accidentally or by their own hand is irrelevant.

Well to begin with...most people consider children to be up to age 12. Maybe 14, but most people consider 13-17 adolescents or teens. So there's some skew for you.

And perhaps you didn't read closely enough but the data includes 18 and 19 year olds in their definition. How much SKEW do you want here? NOBODY considers an 18 or 19 year old a child. Those are adults. Skew skew. Hmmm...I wonder why they included ADULTS in their data and their definition of children? Do you think it's possible they were trying to...ya know...SKEW the results...so that they could somehow say that guns were the leading cause of death in children? AaahSKEW! Sorry. Had a little tickle in my nose there.

Then there is the fact that the overwhelming majority of those deaths are in the upper age range...17, 18 and 19 year olds, that were the result of gang violence. Some people might call this heavily SKEWED to the upper end with a massive portion NOT being actual "children."

That so called study is one VERY big SKEWED propaganda piece of crap to play on the emotions of the low volume, lazy sheep. Moreover, if this problem is as bad as they claim it is, then why do they have to Skew the information and outright lie, to try and substantiate their position?

 

[DunRanull]

Well to begin with...most people consider children to be up to age 12. Maybe 14, but most people consider 13-17 adolescents or teens. So there's some skew for you.

And perhaps you didn't read closely enough but the data includes 18 and 19 year olds in their definition. How much SKEW do you want here? NOBODY considers an 18 or 19 year old a child. Those are adults. Skew skew. Hmmm...I wonder why they included ADULTS in their data and their definition of children? Do you think it's possible they were trying to...ya know...SKEW the results...so that they could somehow say that guns were the leading cause of death in children? AaahSKEW! Sorry. Had a little tickle in my nose there.

Then there is the fact that the overwhelming majority of those deaths are in the upper age range...17, 18 and 19 year olds, that were the result of gang violence. Some people might call this heavily SKEWED to the upper end with a massive portion NOT being actual "children."

That so called study is one VERY big SKEWED propaganda piece of crap to play on the emotions of the low volume, lazy sheep. Moreover, if this problem is as bad as they claim it is, then why do they have to Skew the information and outright lie, to try and substantiate their position?

18 year olds are "adults" in the eyes of the law. Voting, military service, contracts, etc. 18-19 year olds are "skew" in the propaganda of the gun-grabbers... go figger, would they really LIE? C'mon, man!

 

[Koda]

The skew was they cited a 40 something percent increase in gun related deaths with children then lateron in the details showed that over 60% of those were homicides.

Homicides is not the guns fault as if some kid found dads gun in the drawer and pulled the trigger cause he didnt know better. The study show less than 10 something percent of kids died with unintentional gun discharge like that.

skew skew... its all lies. How long is the left going to get away with lying politically like this?

 

[nwslopoke]

it is crazy how if one specific race would stop murdering each other firearm homicides would drop by 87%

It's more of a taught behavior and conditioning, over race. The same areas that were the same race in the 50s-80s weren't always as violent or deadly.

Gangs that were started by 15 yo never outgrew a 15 yo mentality. 50 years later we still suffer the consequences. Having lived through it, definitely a liberal mind hive is the battery that drives it. No accountability and too many social safety nets that replaced responsibility.

 

[DunRanull]

The skew was they cited a 40 something percent increase in gun related deaths with children then lateron in the details showed that over 60% of those were homicides.

Homicides is not the guns fault as if some kid found dads gun in the drawer and pulled the trigger cause he didnt know better. The study show less than 10 something percent of kids died with unintentional gun discharge like that.

skew skew... its all lies. How long is the left going to get away with lying politically like this?

They will get away with their subtle and not-so-subtle lies as long as the media aids and abets them. Tyranny and the purveyors of tyranny never sleep. "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"- Thomas Jefferson

It's more of a taught behavior and conditioning, over race. The same areas that were the same race in the 50s-80s weren't always as violent or deadly.

Gangs that were started by 15 yo never outgrew a 15 yo mentality. 50 years later we still suffer the consequences. Having lived through it, definitely a liberal mind hive is the battery that drives it. No accountability and too many social safety nets that replaced responsibility.

 

[OldBroad44]

Study was published in the journal Pedriatrics. In US pediatrics relates to infants, children, adolescents, and young adults, and extends from up to 21 to up to 25 depending on subspecialty. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pediatrics

Pediatrics involves study of humans while they are growing and developing. Given the human brain is still immature and developing up until about age 25 its justifiable to include up to 25 in such a study. In UK they define 'pedriatrics' as up to 18. In USA we consider a child legally an adult at 18 or 21 depending on the issue and the state. Words are often defined differently in medicine or science than in general use. It was legit to include up through 19 in the study. What isn't legit is to discuss the study for lay audiences as if speaking of "children". And actually, the gun deaths they are talking about are nearly all what most of us would consider adult or near adult gang bangers shooting each other. Not "children" being victimized. Nor does the study say much about the fact that there was also a large rise in deaths in this age group from car accidents and "poisoning", meaning presumably drug overdoses.

Note that the stated purpose of the study is to collect info that would be useful in guiding medical care. So I think the study is going to be aimed at encouraging doctors, medical advisers, and medical insurance companies to take an increasingly active role in adding questions about guns to health and medical forms, in notifying LE to try to get guns confiscated from patients who have committed no crimes, and possibly in making health insurance more expensive for gun owners or even impossible to get.

 

[bolus]

The number of homicide/suicide deaths among young adults is disturbing. And when did we begin referring to 18-19 y.o. young adults as "children"?

When we started recruiting them into the military

here, chatGPT sums this up quite well:

The phenomenon you're describing, where language is used in a way that evokes specific emotions or biases, is often referred to as "framing" or "linguistic framing." Framing involves presenting information in a particular way to shape the perception or interpretation of an issue, event, or topic. It's a form of persuasive communication that can influence how people think about and respond to the subject being discussed.​

​

In the context you mentioned, using terms like "child" to refer to victims of firearm deaths up to the age of 19 while not using the same term for a 17-year-old joining the military can be seen as a form of framing to emphasize the vulnerability and innocence of the firearm victims. By using emotionally charged language like "child," the authors may be attempting to evoke stronger empathy and concern from the readers. On the other hand, not using the same terminology for a 17-year-old joining the military might serve to downplay or neutralize the perception of their situation, potentially emphasizing their agency or maturity.​

​

This kind of linguistic framing can have a powerful impact on how people perceive and respond to various issues. It's important for readers to be aware of these techniques and critically evaluate the language and terminology used in any communication to better understand the underlying message and intent.​

Oh, I sent an email to the author to ask if he thought he was using "linguistic framing." I expect a denial shortly.

 

[DunRanull]

it is crazy how if one specific race would stop murdering each other firearm homicides would drop by 87%

If one specific race would quit committing felonies, 80+% of the prison population would disappear. The last criminal justice figures I read indicated that 80+% of violent or serious felonies were committed by a group comprising less than 12% of the overall population. Perhaps that is changing with the influx from south of the border(?)

 

[Jay Walk]

There's lies, damned lies, and statistics.

-Mark Twain

"I'll give up my guns when everyone else does."

Ice-T

 

[Jay Walk]

Statistics are skewed, like the guy advertising a pistol and quoting Gunbroker asking prices as "Selling prices" when anyone with half a brain can see that actual bids on GB for the exact same firearm are less than 50% of what the seller claims they are bringing.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I have never seen a gun cause death....
I have seen a person using a firearm to kill someone...I have done so as well during my combat tours.
However...the above are a person's actions not a firearm's actions.

A small point ...but guns by themselves do nothing...they don't cause anything.
Death happens....sometimes it is natural....sometimes it ain't.
Death by a criminal's actions statistics , I can understand...
Death by self inflicted means....again I can understand...
Accident or negligent death...also understood...
Gun death...is just a easy , poorly worded term at best...and a term used to elicit a particular response at the worst.


Also as pointed out by many above...18-19 year old's are not children.
Andy

 

[eustace_stelio]

How many people take their 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and up to 25 yr old to a pediatrician? I'm guessing zero...