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Grip and Stance make a difference

Discussion in 'Handgun Discussion' started by CrossHairs, Mar 20, 2010.

  1. CrossHairs

    CrossHairs Tigard Active Member

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    Decided to do a little research and change my pistol stance and grip based on some video's I've seen lately.

    I've gone for the fully forward facing stance with the slightly bent elbows and the thumbs facing forward.

    Wow! What a difference. While I am not quite where I want to be....the change immediately put me better on target and I started seeing some real groupings. It also told me that the adjustments I made to my sights on my P226 were unnecessary! the pull to the left was my fault and not the gun (go figure).
     
  2. SSG

    SSG Lane County New Member

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    I know what you mean...the trick is to get to the point where you know if the error is in the firearm or you...if an isosceles stance is workable for you...your in good company, many pro shooters use that as well...
     
  3. Tilos

    Tilos Idaho Active Member

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    CrossHairs:
    It's good to hear of your success.

    In my experience, the process of becoming a good shot can be long and costly with a center fire.
    Using a 22LR and a bit of coaching can greatly shorten the time and expense of becoming a good pistol shot.
    Starting with a 22LR with a red dot is even better as it takes sight alignment out of the equation and you can see the dot move from trigger input.
    If you can master that, it's time to move to iron/open sights.
    After that it's only a matter of getting used to the additional recoil and mechanics of any gun.
     
  4. CrossHairs

    CrossHairs Tigard Active Member

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    Which is why I also have the 22LR conversion kit for the P226. Two guns in one.
     
  5. Blackfeather7

    Blackfeather7 Oregon Member

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    Isn't there a trade off? Wouldn't the fully forward facing stance make you a better target in a self defense situation? If accurate target shooting is your end in mind and not a means to an end (self defense) it is probably best. However personaly I would rather try to get good at hitting a man sized target from 20' while making my own profile as narrow as possible.
     
  6. Tilos

    Tilos Idaho Active Member

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    Good going, enjoy the journey to becoming a good shot.
    Any grip/stance/etc. if practiced enough, will give consistent results.

    Many never take the time because of the cost of center fire ammo and become frustrated.

    I see from another thread you are a fellow member of Tri-County GC.
    I often see new members/shooters at the 25 yard pistol line with new pistols.
    They first shoot off hand, trying different grips.
    The poor results usually leads them to thrusting their waist or hip into the bench.
    This is the point at which they usually pull up a chair and start stacking sand bags to shoot from.
    Soon they are out of ammo, frustrated, and leave without learning anything.

    25 yards is not the place to start but most do not have access to the Action Range.

    It's hard work to learn to shoot a handgun well and some accept the results they get way sooner than others.
    It all depends on what you are looking for or are willing to accept.

    Trigger control and sight picture improves ANY type of pistol or rifle shooting.

    Just my opinion,

    Tilos
     
  7. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

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    Practice, Practice... Practice. Firing drills and non firing drills.

    Out at the range, if you've got the land then on your land, Browns Camp (be careful).. and in your home (not actually firing) but many need to get that feel for a home invasion or any other type of "In-Home" scenario with and without some flashlight tactics.
    Perhaps with the lights off or dimmed, things can look a bit different in the dark. I thought I knew my house layout pretty well, but being in the dark and in a hurry tend to mess with my eyes a little. It never hurts to be prepared.
     
  8. CrossHairs

    CrossHairs Tigard Active Member

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    This is one of the many reasons I joined TC. I'm a bit of a perfectionist anyway and if I'm going to do something, I'll do it to the best of my ability. And yes, the cop out is to hit the rests and blow a load of ammo for nothing. But I'm pretty certain that a little thought, good equipment and practice you can acheive alot.

    I'm waiting to get the class for the action range, that is something that I think will help and will be fun in the process. 25 yards is a hard place to start, however, I read someone else on here comment that if you can hot the target reliably at 25 yards, anything closer is a bonus! I'll agree with that.
     
  9. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    It's amazing all the things that effect your shooting...it goes way beyond just grip and stance.

    Compare this target to where the majority of your rounds are going and this should help (invert all expect the top and bottom depictions if you are left-handed).
     
  10. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Could it be the grip? Maybe, but when shooting one handed, that kind of throws that out the window. Is it the stance? Could be again, but the range will be the best platform you'll most likely ever have when shooting. Outside of the range, you're not going to know what you're platform will be...muddy soft ground, hill sides etc.

    Once the front sight is on the target, you can pretty much forget about it, as it's not going to move unless you consciously move it off.

    We have a self centering device built in to most of us. Pick an object across the room and point at it. Am not a betting man, but will lay some good money down that you're pointing to the middle of it, yet I didn't ask you to. Of all the hundreds of shooters I have trained, I have yet to find anyone that won't be pointing at the middle of said object. Every human will instinctively point to the middle of whatever shape they are looking at.

    Next with your handgun, assembled or just the bare slide, obtain the perfect slight alignment and sight picture on the same object, or pick another.
    Try as hard as you can to keep equal light on each side of the front sight as it sits in the rear sight. No matter what you do to keep that perfect sight alignment and picture, you'll always be keeping it in the middle or on target. But yet you won't be able to keep a 'perfect' alignment very long. Why? Because we have two things fighting against it...a heart pumping, and lungs that need to breathe.
    The movement of the sights cannot be predicted, but your front sight will always come back to the middle of your target. You do not have to physically or consciously manipulate the sights back to the middle, the subconscious will keep the sights in the middle with proper sight alignment and placement. The aiming portion of the shot is done.

    The only conscience thing you will ever have to do after that is press the trigger. If you do not concentrate on that, in other words...if it's not the last thing you think about when the shot went off, then you will have problems.

    Keep saying to yourself "Keep Pressing, Keep Pressing, Keep Pressing" over and over until the shot goes off. Try it, and I bet you'll see a great difference in your shot placement.

    Also, every shot fired, manipulation etc., is another repetition to further ingrain your training. Fight the urge to go out with friends and blast away. Every proper trigger press is another proper repetition for your training.

    Proper consistency is the key to any training regimen. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.
     
  11. turq

    turq Molino,oregon Member

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    Over the past 30 years of shooting I have found the hardest thing about shooting a pistol is the trigger pull. To be neutral in thought and pull is very hard to this day. Recoil never killed anything.
    I have found it is a sort of Zen and the Art of pulling the trigger. The sights must be on....always;; focus on it. Pull/ pull more as you Maintain the sight picture. Most important be surprised as the shot goes off. Do not anticipate it. It only leads to the next pull/shot/sight picture.
    Focus on the site pic. Squeeze thru the shot.
    And most of all practice and good luck..02$
     
  12. greydog111

    greydog111 peoples repubilik of Oregon Active Member

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    Part of the trend of a non bladed stance when combat shooting is the offering of a full front body stance to take advantage of full body armor picture to the bad guy shooting at you.
    When using the bladed stance, you open the side area of your armor to sighting of your opponent and risk lethal wounding. Greydog.:thumbup:
     
  13. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Amen brother!
     
  14. buick455

    buick455 se portland Member

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    one thing that has helped me is front sight focus

    your target and your rear sights should be a bit blurry and front sight should be crystal clear thru out the trigger pull
     
  15. rds801

    rds801 Portland Member

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    Yup. This is what I learned during some training. Also, about anticipating recoil....While going through some training I had to put one dummy round in each magazine, somewhere in the middle or so. When I get to the dummy round, my front sight should not move. Must admit, it did happen once ;)
     
  16. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    This will change in about a year or two...I still perfer the Weaver over the Isosceles.

    Granted, both stances have their pros and cons. Traversing to the weak-side requires a pivot, and the obvious body armor gap is the downfall of the Weaver...but the chicken-wing and the bigger profile from the Isosceles is just as bad.

    Either way, I think this says it best...
    rule4.jpg

    *edit*

    just to add...

    I used to adopt everything I was taught until I started playing paintball and did force-on-force training....now I adopt my stances according to the environment.

    When slicing the pie, I would actually recommend tilting or canting the firearm in the direction of the opening to create as little of a profile as possible.

    lvidcap_960.jpg

    Instead of sticking half your body out in a fatal funnel, you should either switch firing hands or cant out...peaking out with the majority of your body is just going to get you killed. Having that proper shooting stance is nill in comparison to winning the gun fight with superior tactics by utilizing your cover as much as possible.

    My 2 cents...
     
  17. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    "....but the chicken-wing and the bigger profile from the Isosceles is just as bad"

    Can't say that I ever saw a triangle with chicken wings. :confused:
    Nor have I ever saw anyone shoot Isosceles having them. If someone is shooting the stance in that manner, someone needs to step in and school them a bit.

    I find most gamers will look like the photo at the bottom...leaning way out.
    The P in USPSA and IPSC has long gone by the wayside!