Germans asking for arms back....

[billdeserthills]

just makes me think about how much their black market needs these items

 

[wired]

I dont trust Germans with guns. Just saying.

 

[HuckleberryFun]

I like the Swiss model. Every Swiss citizen (that is able) serves in the reserves and are allowed to keep their full-automatic assault rifles at home with them if they wish. A real Minuteman model, that. Maybe this setup is why they never had to fight a war in over 500 years? Even Hitler didn't mess with them .
Just sayin'...

 

[wired]

I like the Swiss model. Every Swiss citizen (that is able) serves in the reserves and are allowed to keep their full-automatic assault rifles at home with them if they wish. A real Minuteman model, that. Maybe this setup is why they never had to fight a war in over 500 years? Even Hitler didn't mess with them .
Just sayin'...

The Swiss model is way over rated . 120,000 of the Swiss keep their rifles at home out of a population of 8 million. The ammo is kept in arsenals except for two thousand professional soldiers who are allowed to bring ammo home.. The Swiss do a lot of shooting compared to the rest of Europeans but its almost all done on certified ranges.

They were Hitlers bankers. That and the topography would have made an invasion of Switzerland impossible.

 

[Koda]

unless the Swiss have a RTKBA written in their constitution then its just a privelege until something goes wrong....

 

[HuckleberryFun]

Granted, your criticisms of this Swiss model are valid. My info may be out of date. I have a book on my shelf from the 90s called La Place de la Concorde Suisse that is all about their military defense/militia system and is probably outdated now. There was an incident a year or two(?) ago where a reservist went bonkers, grabbed his assault rifle and killed a bunch of people. Yeah, happens even in "perfect" Switzerland. I have no doubt that they cracked down on "weapons of war" kept at home after that, but I have no specific info.

Yes, they were Hitler's bankers. Kind of like the way American corporations did business with the Nazis before, during, and after the War. No country is pure, not even ours (much as I love it...).

 

[wired]

They changed their militia system around a lot in 2007.

 

[HuckleberryFun]

They changed their militia system around a lot in 2007.

Thanks, Wired, I didn't know that. You sparked my interest though, so I'm going to research it and get back up to date. Just as soon as I can break myself free of this northwestfirearms forums Honey Trap. Help, I'm now a prisoner of good gun talk!

 

[Koda]

There was an incident a year or two(?) ago where a reservist went bonkers, grabbed his assault rifle and killed a bunch of people. Yeah, happens even in "perfect" Switzerland. I have no doubt that they cracked down on "weapons of war" kept at home after that, but I have no specific info.

I could be wrong but I thought they changed their ammo policy after that, soldiers were still required to take their rifles home but no longer issued or allowed to take govt ammo home. They were allowed to buy their own personal ammo if I recall but I thought there was some restrictions on that like a 100rd limit and only for their personal (registered) guns or something like that....

The swiss model has merit and much to learn from, but its not the panache many people say it to be.

 

[wired]

They can buy ammo for range use at the range. Taking it home is Verboten/Prohibito/Interdit unless they are in a few restricted restricted groups of the military.

In any case the Swiss ( used to date one . HOT !!! ) look at guns as implements of National Defense. They do not see them as self defense tools against criminals. They think we're nuts. Use a gun against someone breaking into your home in Switzerland and you are probably going to a Canton Jail.

 

[Medic!]

I could be wrong but I thought they changed their ammo policy after that, soldiers were still required to take their rifles home but no longer issued or allowed to take govt ammo home. They were allowed to buy their own personal ammo if I recall but I thought there was some restrictions on that like a 100rd limit and only for their personal (registered) guns or something like that....

The swiss model has merit and much to learn from, but its not the panache many people say it to be.

I much prefer the American Model.

Pop in to Wal-Mart for a pack of chewing gum.
Come out with a Colt AR-15!

Man! That must just stupefy the Europeans.

 

[cigars]

In general, Germans may posses firearms, including semi-automatic handguns/rifles. There are restrictions on the weapon's caliber, barrel length and brass size. Everything larger than 20mm–20mm comes within German "War Weapons Control Act"—is considered unlawful for private users.

To possess a firearms, an individual needs must provide the state with a reason why they want to buy, own and shoot a particular gun. This can be: sport shooting, hunting or collector/surveyor (the rarest form of gun ownership). There are different requirements to receive permission for each use:

Sport Shooting

You have to be member of an established shooting club, certified by this sport shooting society for at least 12 months. Before you can buy your first gun you also have to . . .

– provide proof of at least 18 practice sessions within 12 months (i.e. with a rental gun at your shooting club)

– pass a governmental exam of general firearms knowledge (use, laws, handling etc.)

– receive a letter from your certified shooting society stating that you need a gun or guns for a specific shooting discipline (e.g., "precision shooting cal. <.38 25 meters")

– provide a form establishing that you have no criminal records

If you manage to jump through all those hoops, the state grants you the right to own two hand guns and first three <broken link removed> rifles. However, you are only allowed to buy two fire arms within six months.

You also receive two different types of owner cards: a yellow "sport shooters firearms owner card" and a green "firearms owner card".

Yellow Card

With the yellow card you are allowed to buy single shot and repeating <broken link removed> with a rifled barrel, and double-barreled shotguns (over-and-under 0only, no <broken link removed> , no pumps). Defacto you go to your gun dealer, show your yellow card and buy such a gun.

The dealer records the sale on your card and informs the authority responsible for your place of living. You have to go to your local authority within 14 days to get a confirmation; they put a seal on your card. The purchased gun must be suitable for a discipline offered by any certified german shooting society (not necessarily the club where you qualified).

Green Card

All other weapons which don't apply to the yellow card must be recorded on the gren card. For example, <broken link removed> , revolvers, semi-autos, pump action shotguns etc.

It's more difficult to purchase a firearm with you green card. First, you must maintain your status as a sports shooter (18 training sessions within 12 months). You have to file a petition with your shooting societey for a discipline (i.e. "pistol combined shooting cal. <9mm, 25 meters").

With copies of both cards (green and yellow) you must show that you actually don't have another example of the gun you want to buy, or another gun which fits the mentioned discipline. Two guns in same caliber are allowed—but only if you are a succesful shooter at state level (as a backup gun for competition purposes.

If your shooting society provides permission for the new gun, your gun-authority or responsible police office must then endorse the green card, giving you specific permission to buy the specific type of gun. This record is valid for one year.

After you buy the gun, you have to follow the same procedure as stated above: the dealer records the sale to the card and informs the authority responsible for your place of living. Again, you have 14 days to go to your authority to receive a confirmation (a seal affixed to your card).


There are many types of hand guns and <broken link removed> which are generaly not allowed for sport shooting purposes, such as rifles with barrels <40cm, <broken link removed> <40mm

Hunting

To receive a hunting license you must . . .

– pass a government exam of general knowledge (firearms use, laws, handling etc.). The hunters' exam is very expensive (apx. 2000 EUR). The failure rate is high (apx. 60-70 percent). You have to learn "butchery," "veterinary," "ranger," "groundsman," "lawyer," "gunsmith" and "ballistic."

– provide extended personal record. This includes any information on any government conviction or fine

– purchase a hunting license for one year (apx. 120 EUR)

If you pass the hunting exam and receive a hunting license, you are allowed to buy as many <broken link removed> as you can securely store. You're allowed only two handguns—one in .22lr and one heavy-caliber, both for coup de grâce and questing.

You have to regularly renew (buy) your hunting license, which always requires a criminal background check. There's no hunting quota; you can be a hunter without shooting any animal anytime but with your safe full of <broken link removed> and ammo.

You also have to use your "green card" as a permit to buy a firearm with your hunting license. Once again, the dealer records any and all gun sales on the card and informs the authority responsible for your place of living, triggering the 14 day deadline for an official seal on the card.

As a hunter, you can buy some weapons which are not allowed to sport shooters (or only with special permit). Those include pump-action shotguns (as many you can afford) and short-barreled semi-auto rifles (>40cm barrell, compact black <broken link removed> like a mp5, m16).

Unfortunately, you are not welcome with such "harvesters" at a hunting party. Those are restricted to semi-autos with two-shot magazines. This goes back to the "Reich hunting law" by the "Reich Hunting Minister" Herman Goering. The Allies weren't rigorous enough mucking out those Nazi-crap with their tommy guns and Garands in 1945. Seem your grandpas forget to leave a Second Amendment for us.

Anyway, most German hunters are over 50 years old. Young people have little interest in becoming a hunter; it's expensive, difficult (exam) and your collegues are almost near to death. Aside from this, hunters don't get much respect in German society. "Bambi-killer," "boozing companion" and "sex murderer" are some of the better insults they receive.

Collecting

As indicated above, collectors are the rarest group of all German gun owners. To become a gun-collector and get the "red collector card," you have to pass a test on the topic of your collection. For example, you must have profound knowledge of "German handguns of the Wehrmacht" or "long rifles with Mauser-system until 1945." The two main restrictions: the year of the weapons' construction may only extend until 1945 and the subject must be specific. No "Weapons of the Allies" or "German handguns."

After you get the red collectors card, you are allowed to buy guns which apply to your chosen collection area. The purchase procedure is same as a hunter: no mandatory endorsement by third party but reporting to the authority by seller and the buyer with confirmation. Oh, and you need a separate permit to buy <broken link removed> for the collected guns.

Concealed Carry

In general, a legal gun owner may not receive a Concealed Carry (CC) permit. The government only grants a CC is to people in serious danger of bodily harm of kidnapping, regardless of their status as hunters, sport shooters, collectors or none of the above. Needless to say, politicians at state level are automaticly allowed a CC permit.

Again, as a "normal citizen" you have to establish that you in terrible danger. Being shot more than one time is considered adequate proof that you qualify. Being murdered is the best proof to get a CC. Unfortunately, a posthumous CC isn't much use. The state does not allow citizens to be buried with a loaded weapon.

Transporting Guns

The "group of the three" legal gun owners must carry their guns within a closed and locked case, separate from the <broken link removed> . Fast access is prohibited. A gun must not be ready to threat/shoot within 10 seconds. The "locked" provision came into force after the school shooting of Winnenden (near Stuttgart) at 3/11/09.

A licensed hunter is only allowed to carry his loaded gun within his hunting ground. If he has to cross a street or motorway to get from one hunting area to the next, he must unload and lock all his guns and enter the second area before unlocking and reloading the guns.

So you now know how to get a gun or rifle here in Germany. Please note that it's much easier (and cheaper) to get a driver's license for a 20t gasoline truck. For example, there's no need for a background-check to drive such a "bomb on wheels." Crazy laws all over.

Thanks for that informative glimpse into German gun laws. Sorry it's so burdensome. We have some states here that are actually worse though. Cheers.

 

[wired]

Thanks for that informative glimpse into German gun laws. Sorry it's so burdensome. We have some states here that are actually worse though. Cheers.

Thanks for that informative glimpse into German gun laws. Sorry it's so burdensome. We have some states here that are actually worse though. Cheers.

No we dont. What he failed to mention is that your guns for the most part will be kept at your gun club and that is where you will be allowed to shoot them.

 

[HuckleberryFun]

There's NOTHING quite like being a Jolly Green Giant, roaming the earth.... with guns!

Hey there, hi there, ho there, you're as welcome as can be...!

 

[Dungannon]

Just started a new thread about the Swiss push-back on EU gun control.

Swiss push back on EU Gun Control

 

[boogerhook]

He is quite the character. It has been 20 years since I left, but I remember shooting a .22 on our property when growing up - which is 40 years ago. Things have become more difficult, but there are still plenty of guns in Germany. Our rate is 30 guns per 100 population according to the small arms survey.

 

[cigars]

No we dont. What he failed to mention is that your guns for the most part will be kept at your gun club and that is where you will be allowed to shoot them.

Right, I get your point. Try looking at it through the eyes of gun owners in NY and NJ and what they have to go through to comply with their states gun laws. I remember when I ETS'd from the Army and went back home in NY. I had several pistols. I called the local police precinct to ask about what the requirements were. The guy on the phone said to bring them all down to the precinct and drop them off with us while you start your permit application. I asked what would happen to them if I didn't get approved for some reason. He said that I wouldn't get them back in that case. I said OK, see you tomorrow....click. I had moved out of state shortly after that. Check out NY Firearms or Calguns.net. It really sucks for gun owners in some other states.

 

[billdeserthills]

I hear ya, I was visiting a friend in New York, in the country and went to a 'gun show' one weekend. All to see there was a bunch of rifles and shotguns--All handguns were locked up and there weren't many around either. Saddest 'gun show' I ever saw