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G19C stovepiping....not what you think...

Discussion in 'Handgun Discussion' started by addiction, Aug 24, 2011.

  1. addiction

    addiction Monroe Wa Active Member

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    I have a G19C I have been shooting for 1000s of rounds successfully (so its not my grip or limp wristing), recently I shot a few thousand rounds of Wolf Military Classic through it, and other than being a light load it worked just fine. Well this past weekend I ran out and moved on to my Blazer Brass, and the G19C would stovepipe 1-2 times per mag. This is really disturbing....so I really want to get to the bottom of this. I took the gun to a private range and did some testing, I swapped the extractor and the extractor spring out and the problem persisted, I put the original extractor and spring into my G26 and it worked just fine, so that is not it. I looked at the ejector and it looks ok, so I was stumped.

    I took the gun to a buddy who knows his Glocks really well, and we compared the ejector to a new one and could not see any wear or issues. However he did notice something odd on my trigger bar, the bar of the bar that depresses the firing pin safety has a rough rear edge. On closer inspection, it does look like the rear edge is worn, almost beveled, and even more interesting the wear does not go all the way to the top, there is a lip of the trigger bar that is not worn right at the top. Looking at a round ejecting it looks like the round rides along this part of the trigger bar and when the end of the round clears the trigger bar it is ejected out.

    The working theory now is the Wolf has worn the trigger bar left this little lip, and when the hotter Blazer Brass is fired the casing is catching on the lip and tossing the brass back into the chamber.

    Something that is enforcing this idea is about half the stovepipes, the brass had done a full 180 and dropped into the chamber again. This would make sense, the lip is catching the front of the brass, and flipping it 180....

    Below is the best picture I could get of the lip.

    Later this week I will get a change to try a different trigger bar to isolate this as a source. I am going to put the suspect trigger bar into my G19 and see if the problem follows the trigger bar....I will keep you posted.

    DSC_0001_sm.jpg
     
  2. coop44

    coop44 Tacoma ,WA Well-Known Member

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    throw it away and buy a new one
     
  3. addiction

    addiction Monroe Wa Active Member

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    well, I managed to get my test in and boy it is anything but conclusive. I put the suspect trigger bar into my other G19C (RTF2 problem G19C is the OD one) and expected it to replicate the problem, but no, it worked flawlessly. So I went back to the OD G19C and fired a bunch more, it was better for sure, got only one stovepipe out of 3-4 mags not 1-2 per mag. But still...So I swapped the slide off the OD onto the RTF2 where the suspect trigger bar is now, expecting to see the original failure rate return, same slide, same trigger bar, so it should be the same failures, but not, it did not stovepipe.

    I did not put the suspect trigger bar backing into the OD frame to see if I would reproduce the problem since I ran out of time, but as of now the only common part is the OD frame and the ejector....

    frustrated the problem did not follow the suspect trigger bar....now I am thinking more testing or just buy all new parts for the OD G19C and start a reliability test again....if I do that I do not know what was the cause, and can not anticipate it in the future.

    thoughts?
     
  4. ogre

    ogre Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    What he says. Also if you have over 5,000 rounds on the recoil spring then go ahead and replace it too.
     
  5. addiction

    addiction Monroe Wa Active Member

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    so managed to get some more shooting in this weekend, and debugged some more.

    Before shooting I cleaned both my G19s, the OD has the problem, the RTF2 does not,

    I smoothed out the rough spot on the trigger bar, put it back into the OD frame, and I smoothed out the ejector surface some as well on both frames, 200 grit sand paper, minimal rework, just enough to get a smoother surface.

    Shot a USPSA match yesterday, started with the original configuration that started all this except with the smoothed out parts. First Stage went fine, on the second stage, it was a series of single shots on targets, it stovepiped again, so after that stage I swapped out the entire slide, barrel, spring, everything.....it stove piped again in a following stage, so I swapped out the entire gun and ran the RTF2 lower with the upper off the original gun, this one ran with no issues for the rest of the day.

    So it has to be the ejector, right? I ordered an new one and a new trigger bar just for good measure. I can not think of any other part of the lower that could have an effect on the ejection of brass....am I missing anything?
     
  6. chowser2

    chowser2 seaside Member

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    could be a weak ejector spring, order a new/stronger on from glockparts.
     
  7. buick455

    buick455 se portland Member

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    I commend you for your diligence in trying to find a solution and not just swapping parts, which is tempting considering that glock parts are so cheap.

    it seems to me that you have narrowed it down to a problem with the lower half of the OD gun and because the problem is only intermintent and after many rounds including steel cased stuff I would suspect that it is caused by a part that has worn to outside its tolerance. My first guess would be a the end of the extractor in the frame may be worn at an angle.

    one other problem I've seen with the steel cased ammo is that because the cases don't expand and seal on the chamber as well as brass, that you can get a burnt powder build up on the walls of the chamber and when you switch over to brass without REALLY scrubbing the heck out of the chamber the brass can expand and grab the wall on the way out and not eject properly
     
  8. clownbuster

    clownbuster Vancouver, WA Active Member

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    Had this same problem on one of my G29 10mm's. Look at this diagram:
    TopGlock.com: glock_parts_diagram_topglock

    I replaced #9 through #15, and 9000 rounds later without a problem. I roll my own rounds and powder charge at the max end of case pressures.
     
  9. DAPSRT

    DAPSRT Dallas, Or Active Member

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    Are they actually stove piping (not ejecting) or are you having feeding problems? In other words, ammo feeding and jamming "nose up" into the chamber and jamming up the slide?
     
  10. addiction

    addiction Monroe Wa Active Member

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    So I replaced the trigger bar and ejector on my OD G19C this week, I also replaced them on my RTF2 G19C just for fun. I also installed a non LCI extractor on the slide of the OD gun.

    I took them out to a match yesterday and on the first stage the OD gun stovepiped again (ugh) so I swapped the slide to eliminate the non LCI extractor, and on the next stage I stovepiped again.....

    So I put the slide from the RTF2 G19C (has the LCI extractor, the one that just stovepiped on the OD frame) back on the RTF2 frame and shot the rest of the match stoppage free.

    So the only thing left in the OD frame are the mag release, the locking block, and the slide lock, so I guess I will swap those out next,

    this is really frustrating

    I am going to do an extensive inspection of the OD frame for cracks or anything else I can see, a quick look showed nothing.

    I am at a loss as to how this is still happening. My only theory now is the mag release is somehow messed up and allowing the mag to sit too high...but that is a long shot at best

    another update, I swapped all the internals, now including the mag release, the slide lock, and the locking block.

    So I took it out and I did not get to shoot as much as I wanted to for a full test, but the OD frame was flawless, and the RTF2 frame stovepiped once.....

    I will need to shoot both of them some more to confirm that the issue has followed the parts not the frame, but it sure looks like it.

    so I shot another USPSA match, and the OD gun was flawless, I was running a slide with a non LCI extractor, next test is to put the LCI extractor back in and see if it continues to be a success.

    If it does continue to operate, the the problem is narrowed down to the locking, block, slide lock or the mag release. My money is on the mag release.

    more as it develops....next weekend I will be shooting again where I should get off quite a few rounds, so it should be a good test.
     
  11. DAPSRT

    DAPSRT Dallas, Or Active Member

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    Magazines.... don't forget that a weak magazine spring or other magazine issue can induce malfunctions. Seems like your problem is pretty intermittent and based on what you're saying it doesn't seem to have any relevance to any of the frame and/or slide parts.

    So when you say it's stove piping is it jamming rounds nose up or are casings actually failing to eject?