Other State Florida City Commissioner shoots and kills shoplifter trying to exit store with hatchet

[bbbass]

Mmmmm, based ONLY on the vid... bad shoot. When looked at full screen, I can see he had "something" in his right hand, but it was about the size of a pack of ciggies, NOT a hatchet. Probably the hatchet was still in his pants.

I would retract this statement if there were more info or a better view of his right hand. That said, even if he did have a hatchet in his right hand, he certainly was not threatening with it in the vid. And it was the shooter that placed himself within striking distance.

I can't see any reason to shoot the guy during the vid. Yes we don't see or hear everything, just basing on the vid.

 

[etrain16]

This is the problem, we are shown a piece of the events and a read some blurb written by a completely gun biased media. We see a small glimpse with zero sounds. How do we know this dude wasn't screaming "allah-snackbar" and about to go jihadi on the infidels in the parking lot? We don't and I'm not holding my breath for any real facts from the MSM.

Don't be so quick to throw someone under the bus. That said, if this is indeed a killing over property then throw that very large book at the commish as he is no one special and the law applies to him as well.

I don't think I'm throwing anyone under the bus. I made it clear, that from the limited info in the video, I didn't see a justification. But the last line of my post also stated I am open to revising that opinion if more information comes to light. I based my statement solely on the only evidence available, and based on that, I can still see no justification for the shoot.

 

[RVTECH]

Without audio, we don't know if the perps last words were "I'm gonna getchu sucka!" Or something to that effect.

Well even if we did have audio, and his last words were, "I'm gonna getchu sucka!", it wouldn't have mattered since they would have been his last...
Regardless however we do have clear video showing Dunn with one hand on the guy and a gun in the other. How would this be legally classified? As assault or self defense? My point being if Dunn felt the situation dictated him pulling his gun shouldn't that have been his ONLY response while maintaining control of the gun (which he clearly compromised by putting his hand on the guy) and to seek cover and concealment with which to defend himself and others if necessary?
They guy was NOT moving on Dunn and was clearly trying to get away while Dunn was either assaulting or attempting to detain him while he SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN CONTROL OF HIS GUN.
My training was (if I drew my weapon) to back up and NOT make physical contact with the person (or body contact with the gun) and of course seek cover and concealment.
Dunn's actions could be construed as aggressive and not defensive in nature given he had already drawn his gun. He had no REASON to put his hand on the guy and some might say he was positioning him for a frontal shot.

 

[Doublesunder]

Thief 0
World +1

 

[po18guy]

It was a crime in progress. The perp chose and was armed with a deadly weapon. When confronted, he was up close and personal and facing the officer (< 21 feet is the edged-weapon dead zone). One slashed jugular and the officer would have been dead in 10 seconds. Very glad I never had to make such a call.

The legal point is whether or not the officer feared for his life or the lives of others.

 

[MrRob96]

I don't know of any state where a person can use deadly force to protect property.

Texas. Theft at night.

I was informed of this during the mandated concealed carry class. There are benefits to requiring classes.

The instructors strongly advised not shooting a kid stealing a bike at night.

 

[Kruel J]

Dirty shoot. The perp was trying to get away and the guy was grabbing on to him. If he had let go, the perp would have obviously run away. Shot over a property crime. And it wasn't even the shooters property.

 

[RVTECH]

The legal point is whether or not the officer feared for his life or the lives of others.

Except this was not an 'Officer' but an armed citizen who had already drawn his gun and had no further reason to make physical contact with the person.

 

[MrRob96]

Regardless of the legality of the shoot, I think the thing to point out here is the media hyperfocus on these FL defensive gun use cases. hmmmm

 

[Kruel J]

Except this was not an 'Officer' but an armed citizen who had already drawn his gun and had no further reason to make physical contact with the person.

Yep.

 

[U8395279]

Going solely off the video, I can't see any justification for the shooting. There was no clear threat to the commissioner that I could see, though maybe another angle or video might show just that? The guy was trying to run with a piece of stolen property, I don't know of any state that allows deadly force to stop someone from stealing. Seems a waste and this commissioner is likely going to pay a heavy price to try and protect what, $20 in stolen property? I agree, stealing is stupid, and you're likely to get some serious crap coming down on your head if you do it, but I just see no justification for deadly force here.

I'll be happy to revise that if better information comes out showing he had made threats of violence on anyone in the store with that hatchet.

One customer who witnessed the event told a local TV news reporter that the thief never made any threatening moves with the hatchet.

The thief had a long arrest record of 25 arrests. But they were all for petty, non-violent crimes. No felonies of any kind. He had stolen things many times before.

 

[MrRob96]

Not enough "Facts" here to say one way or another if this was a good shoot or Not! Like pointed out, there is no audio, and we only see a small clip from one angle! I'm going to wait and see! On the surface it dosnt look good for the shooter, but facts need to bear that out!

This one looks pretty clear. The thief wraps his arms around his body and tries to exit the door. He even slightly turns away from the shooter. The shooter steps in and grabs him. The grab from the shooter is the only reason the thief turned... The turn wasn't a voluntary action on his part.

Of course I can't tell an intent here, but it looks like the shooter turned the thief toward him and used the right moment to shoot him in the chest and not the back or side. Making it look more like a defensive gun use rather than a killing. Except for that pesky video.

This looks very much like a murder, but if I was a defense lawyer it'd very much look like a man scared for his life.

 

[Kruel J]

If there was no threats of violence or otherwise, the shooter was just playing cowboy cop. Anyone catch that he had a ND and shot someone when he was 19?

 

[U8395279]

I don't think I'm throwing anyone under the bus. I made it clear, that from the limited info in the video, I didn't see a justification. But the last line of my post also stated I am open to revising that opinion if more information comes to light. I based my statement solely on the only evidence available, and based on that, I can still see no justification for the shoot.

One factor that the press has pointed out is that this commissioner is a strong supporter of the city's police department. In his last election, the local police officer's union donated money to his campaign, and officially endorsed him in his campaign ads.

 

[tac]

I don't know of any state that allows deadly force to stop someone from stealing.

Uh, Texas?

 

[U8395279]

This one looks pretty clear. The thief wraps his arms around his body and tries to exit the door. He even slightly turns away from the shooter. The shooter steps in and grabs him. The grab from the shooter is the only reason the thief turned... The turn wasn't a voluntary action on his part.

Of course I can't tell an intent here, but it looks like the shooter turned the thief toward him and used the right moment to shoot him in the chest and not the back or side. Looks more like a defensive gun use rather than a killing.

This looks very much like a murder, but if I was a defense lawyer it'd very much look like a man scared for his life.

Doesn't murder require premeditation, though? I'm sure that the commissioner did not wake up that morning, with the intention of killing someone that day.

 

[MrRob96]

Uh, Texas?

Yeah, a lot of folks miss this one, especially if they grow up in the liberal northwest. You can even defend your neighbor's property with deadly force.

Anyone look up the property crime rates in Texas?

 

[etrain16]

Uh, Texas?

Does it? I'm always happy to learn something new if someone has a link to their law or a quote that states as much.

 

[etrain16]

One factor that the press has pointed out is that this commissioner is a strong supporter of the city's police department. In his last election, the local police officer's union donated money to his campaign, and officially endorsed him in his campaign ads.

The implication being that the law won't apply to him? If, in fact, he's in the wrong?

 

[MrRob96]

Doesn't murder require premeditation, though? I'm sure that the commissioner did not wake up that morning, with the intention of killing someone that day.

I don't think it does. And premeditation can happen in an instant. Doesn't require someone to want to murder the morning of.

Murder in 1st degree vs 2nd degree.