Firearms Laws and Questions

[speeddemon94]

both the Portland ATF and I recommend that (1) you have a background check run; and (2) that you fill out a bill of sale, listing the type of gun, its serial number, the date of the sale, etc., signed by both parties, and you keep a copy of the same.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!




Not just no, HELL NO!

I'm not into helping the ATF collect information on myself or my peers. Wow.

 

[drew]

It's not that I don't believe it so much as I'm not an attorney and am prudent enough not to have interpreted the law as if I were one.

I did contact my attorney on this just to verify. Here's what he said:

I read the statute the same as you do—you may but do not have to get a background check. To be absolutely sure, without providing anyone with your name, I called the Oregon Department of State Police (503-378-3720), who directed me to the Portland ATF (503-331-7830), who confirmed that you do not need to do a background check for the in-state private party sale of a GCA (Gun Control Act) firearm, although you have the option to do so by calling the Oregon Department of State Police (503-378-3070). Of course, the person you are selling to must not be otherwise prohibited from owning a firearm (e.g., because they are a felon, mentally disabled, etc.). I’m not sure how you figure that out absent a background check. Nevertheless, both the Portland ATF and I recommend that (1) you have a background check run; and (2) that you fill out a bill of sale, listing the type of gun, its serial number, the date of the sale, etc., signed by both parties, and you keep a copy of the same.
​

Look at 166.470 Limitations and conditions for sales of firearms. Oregon uses "knows or reasonably should know" and the federal test is "knowing or having reasonable cause to believe". They use knows and knowledge with reasonable cause to believe in a couple places in the code. Anything above the threshold is a personal choice. The recommendations are above and beyond the law.

This is also why people ask for a dl to check state residence. Is it 100% accurate? I would believe you are a resident of the state that issued your dl.

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

 

[hermannr]

This is also why people ask for a dl to check state residence. Is it 100% accurate? I would believe you are a resident of the state that issued your dl.

Again: If you were to be accused of a crime, and were in court defending yourself, do you want the prosecutor to have to prove you are guilty? or would you rather have it set up that you must prove you are innocent?

In the US, the prosecutor must prove you are guilty, in the same way, if you ask someone if they reside in ? (for you, OR, as you say you live in OR) and the respond yes, I am a resident of ?...and then you require them to produce a drivers license (or CHL) to prove their age and residency....which version are you living under? Innocent until proven guilty, or guilty or lying until they prove they are innocent?

Where, IN THE LAW, does it say it requires state ID, or a state CHL, to purchase a firearm????? Oh my, It doesn't require either does it? So why do YOU require it?

 

[bdpdx]

Where, IN THE LAW, does it say it requires state ID, or a state CHL, to purchase a firearm????? Oh my, It doesn't require either does it? So why do YOU require it?

The law says it is a felony for non-FFL private parties to sell a firearm directly to a resident of another state.

The reason people ask for a driver's license or CHL, even though the law doesn't specifically say you have to, is that they are doing reasonable due diligence, specifically aimed at being able to reasonably demonstrate an effort was made to follow the aforementioned law in the (hopefully very unlikely) event a gun you sell is ultimately used in the commission of a crime.

It sounds like you're of the "no shades of grey" mindset (like this guy?). If that's the case it may be difficult for you to see why people go to this trouble. It boils down to the following:

- Most of us have a lot to lose.
- It is cheaper to ask to see a driver's license than to hire an attorney.
- Most of us don't want to sell a gun to an unstable/antisocial person anyway.

 

[bdpdx]

I'm not into helping the ATF collect information on myself or my peers. Wow.

Seriously?

Do you realize the ATF IS a group of your peers? So are cops.

- They pay taxes.
- Their kids go to public schools.
- They use the same currency you do.
- They get married, divorced, grow old, and die in the same social structure you do.
- Many of them have similar religious and political beliefs.
- They watch the same movies and cheer for the same teams.
- The list goes on and on and on.

If you think for one second your name isn't in a bunch of databases already (Do you have a driver's license? A bank account? An Internet provider?) you seriously have no idea how modern society, particularly the good old US of A works.

We own guns is to protect ourselves from threats, "both foreign and domestic." Someone trying to shoot you in a mall is a threat. Someone trying to land troops on our shores is a threat. Someone trying to blow us up at marathons is a threat. A database is NOT a threat. A database is a tool we can use, hopefully, to help keep the scumbags and sociopaths behind bars where they belong.

Please, at least ask for a driver's license. If for no other reason than to be a good citizen and sell a gun to someone who is hopefully at least as responsible as you are.

p.s. - I'm not affiliated with any government agency, I'm just a sensible person.

 

[Modeler]

Are private party handgun sales between two Oregon residents required to have a background check on the recipient? ORS 166.436 states:

"Prior to transferring a firearm, a transferor other than a gun dealer may request by telephone that the department conduct a criminal background check on the recipient..."​

Generally speaking, the word "may" in legalese means "optional" whereas the word "shall" means "required"

Does anyone know for certain that a background check between private parties (both Oregon residents) is not required?

Your proof that private party transfers are legal without a background check is Senate Bill 700 (Universal Background Checks). If it wasn't presently legal why would the be trying to outlaw it?

 

[Brutus57]

Is there a list of stolen firearms a non LEO could check serial No.s to make sure nothing questionable in a collection?



Brutus out.

 

[bdpdx]

Is there a list of stolen firearms a non LEO could check serial No.s to make sure nothing questionable in a collection?

In Oregon:

The Firearms Unit is responsible for processing stolen gun checks against the stolen weapons files in LEDS and NCIC for the dealers and any private citizen requesting this service. There is no fee for processing the stolen gun checks. To check a firearm against the stolen record files, call 1-800-432-5059.​

​

Also try:

HotGunz Stolen Gun Search
Stolen Gun Database And Stolen Guns Search

 

[drew]

Again: If you were to be accused of a crime, and were in court defending yourself, do you want the prosecutor to have to prove you are guilty? or would you rather have it set up that you must prove you are innocent?

In the US, the prosecutor must prove you are guilty, in the same way, if you ask someone if they reside in ? (for you, OR, as you say you live in OR) and the respond yes, I am a resident of ?...and then you require them to produce a drivers license (or CHL) to prove their age and residency....which version are you living under? Innocent until proven guilty, or guilty or lying until they prove they are innocent?

Where, IN THE LAW, does it say it requires state ID, or a state CHL, to purchase a firearm????? Oh my, It doesn't require either does it? So why do YOU require it?

I will generally put in an ad that you must be willing to show your id. Doesn't mean its required by law or I will actually ask to see it. I could also require the buyer to show up riding a horse. It's not a legal requirement but an additional stipulation.

If you show up in a vehicle with out of state plates, look like you're 15, or act nervous there's a good chance I might ask for your id. I'll ask for an id when I'm beginning to question the legality. If I believe the transaction is illegal, I'm walking away. Seems reasonable to me. I've had a number of transactions where the ids stayed in our pockets. Admittedly, my personal threshold is above the legal threshold but I'm ok with that.

 

[hermannr]

The law says it is a felony for non-FFL private parties to sell a firearm directly to a resident of another state.

The reason people ask for a driver's license or CHL, even though the law doesn't specifically say you have to, is that they are doing reasonable due diligence, specifically aimed at being able to reasonably demonstrate an effort was made to follow the aforementioned law in the (hopefully very unlikely) event a gun you sell is ultimately used in the commission of a crime.

It sounds like you're of the "no shades of grey" mindset (like this guy?). If that's the case it may be difficult for you to see why people go to this trouble. It boils down to the following:

- Most of us have a lot to lose.
- It is cheaper to ask to see a driver's license than to hire an attorney.
- Most of us don't want to sell a gun to an unstable/antisocial person anyway.

I am old, I have purchased firearms prior to GCA68 and any FFls, before the change in the law in 1986, and in 1994..before there were any prohibited persons, before any of this garbage was in existence and guess what??? there were less problems back then there is now. Ya, even in California. the GCA68 (as well as the Mulford Act) was all a reaction to the Black Panthers, and the whole group of garbage is nothing but an infringement of the 2A.

I will tell right off: the key work is "KNOWING" as in you KNEW at the time of the sale that the person was a felon, or other prohibited person. If you do not KNOW that they are a prohibited person, you are NOT in jeopardy. You DO NOT have to prove that you did not know (remember, "innocent until PROVEN guilty") that the person was a prohibited person. There is an old saying that goes..."ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies". "due diligence" would at most ask the person if he was a "prohibited person" and a resident of the state. It is NOT incumbent on you to prove that the person did not lie to you, or not.

It might do you good to read this: http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/Published/115084.p.pdf

 

[speeddemon94]

Seriously?

Do you realize the ATF IS a group of your peers? So are cops.

- They pay taxes.
- Their kids go to public schools.
- They use the same currency you do.
- They get married, divorced, grow old, and die in the same social structure you do.
- Many of them have similar religious and political beliefs.
- They watch the same movies and cheer for the same teams.
- The list goes on and on and on.

If you think for one second your name isn't in a bunch of databases already (Do you have a driver's license? A bank account? An Internet provider?) you seriously have no idea how modern society, particularly the good old US of A works.

We own guns is to protect ourselves from threats, "both foreign and domestic." Someone trying to shoot you in a mall is a threat. Someone trying to land troops on our shores is a threat. Someone trying to blow us up at marathons is a threat. A database is NOT a threat. A database is a tool we can use, hopefully, to help keep the scumbags and sociopaths behind bars where they belong.

Please, at least ask for a driver's license. If for no other reason than to be a good citizen and sell a gun to someone who is hopefully at least as responsible as you are.

p.s. - I'm not affiliated with any government agency, I'm just a sensible person.

Yes, seriously. I WAS with the government for a long period of time. I can assure you that while many of those who dwell within the alphabet soup are 2A supporters, they are not held to quite the same laws as you or I.

You go find an ATF agent to go commit a crime with and see who gets the bad end of that deal.

I am well aware that I am "on the radar" with all of the finest agencies, I was in sensitive positions with clearance, so it's a guarantee.

I'm retired now. It is no one's business what I have and don't have, nor what I choose to buy or sell. I have a pretty good sense when it comes to telling if someone is a prohibited person or not. If I am at all concerned, I walk.

Oh, and if you think a database of registered guns and owners is no threat, then it is you, not I, that has NO clue how the world works, let alone the USA.

I get that you joined to give us "poor uneducated gun nuts" a good education, but you were mistaken.

It is legal to sell face to face. It will continue, even if it is outlawed, the people have had enough with being trod upon.


If you would like to see the scumbags and sociopaths taken care of, then a quick trial and a bullet or rope, is far cheaper than taking care of them in the revolving door prison system. They need to FEAR the consequences of their chosen actions.

You should not come here and tell me what I should do to be a good citizen, by that thought process, all of your posts here should be reason enough to make sure you don't have guns.

You have a real nice day now, and welcome to the forum.

 

[hermannr]

I will generally put in an ad that you must be willing to show your id. Doesn't mean its required by law or I will actually ask to see it. I could also require the buyer to show up riding a horse. It's not a legal requirement but an additional stipulation.

If you show up in a vehicle with out of state plates, look like you're 15, or act nervous there's a good chance I might ask for your id. I'll ask for an id when I'm beginning to question the legality. If I believe the transaction is illegal, I'm walking away. Seems reasonable to me. I've had a number of transactions where the ids stayed in our pockets. Admittedly, my personal threshold is above the legal threshold but I'm ok with that.

I am a collector, so by definition I do not sell, I only purchase, but I will say this much...It has been my experience over 65+years that those that are trust worthy, are trusting. They assume other people are like they are.

If someone were to have a collectible firearm that they wanted to sell to me, and did not trust my word, I would not do business with them, it is that simple. If they do not trust me, I will have no reason to trust them...and because of that lack of mutual trust, I will not do business with them...even if I really want that particular item... (and yes, I have a CPL, I have a blasters license, and a have an inactive top secret clearance from the military. but I will not show them to you.)

I am a firm believer in "innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of LAW"

 

[U201494]

bdpdx is:
1) a sock puppet for another user.
2) a troll.
3) intellectually a turnip and therefore has comprehension issues.
4) all of the above.

 

[speeddemon94]

Oh, I am squeaky clean...

Private means private. The government has embedded itself way too far into every aspect of our lives. If we want to have "things" that the government does not know about, then that should be our option. There is a massive push to take that away, and I wont volunteer one inch, in fact I will push in the other direction.

It just drives me up the wall that anyone would give up their rights so easily.

 

[bjohns61]

Is it legal for a non FFL to sell and ship a weapon to a person in another state if it goes through a FFL in the buyers state?

 

[bjohns61]

Is it legal for a non FFL to sell and ship to a buyer in a different state if it goes through a FFL holder in the buyers state? Can a FFL in one state process a purchase from a private party in a different state?

 

[Nwcid]

The law ONLY says to transfer across state lines firearm have to go TO an FFL.

Some FFL's will only receive from FFL's by policy, choice, ignorance, ect but that is NOT law.

 

[drew]

Is there an exception for immediate family members (parent/child or siblings)?

Only in an inheritance scenario would you be able to legally avoid an FFL for transferring ownership interstate. You can loan a firearm though.

 

[CounterOfBeans]

Hello PhysicGuy,

If you're still checking in on this thread, I have a question for you. In post #2, you wrote:

"Since this was recently discussed in another thread. face to face (FTF) or private firearm transactions between states is prohibited by federal law.

This is prohibited by Title 27 § 178.29 and § 178.30 of the code of federal regulations"

I'm a double-checking kind of guy, so I looked up CFR Title 27. Your first post of the thread was from 2009, so when I brought Title 27 up on the official gov'm'nt CFR site, I clicked on the 2009 version and saw Title 27 had two chapters. Each of these chapters breaks down further into subchapters that cover a specific range of "Parts" each. Chapter 1 broke down as follows:

"SUBCHAPTER A — LIQUORS (Parts 1 to 31)
SUBCHAPTER B — TOBACCO (Parts 40 to 46)
SUBCHAPTER C — FIREARMS (Parts 53 to 53)
SUBCHAPTER D — E [Reserved]
SUBCHAPTER F — PROCEDURES AND PRACTICES (Parts 70 to 73)
SUBCHAPTER G — L [Reserved]
SUBCHAPTER M — ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND OTHER EXCISE TAXES (Parts 194 to 194)"

The numbers you listed above from post #2 are ("167; 178.29 and § 178.30"), i.e. ranging between 167 to 178.30. Based on the Subchapters and Part number ranges I see from Chapter 1, Chapter 1 is where your cited numbers would be. See below:

Subchapter A = Parts 1 to 31
Subchapter B = Parts 40 to 46
Subchapter C = Parts 53 to 53
Subchapter D = "Reserved"
Subchapter F = Parts 70 to 73
Subchapter G = "Reserved"
Subchapter M = Parts 194 to 194

None of the numbers you provided fall into the number range options in Chapter 1, so I'm trying to figure out where I have my wires crossed. You don't describe the numbers you list as any type or level of provision like "section" or "subsection" or etc., and the CFR's only go to Title 50, so your numbers can't be Title numbers. So I'm not sure what they are or what body of law they're from exactly. I want to know this information so I can look these laws up for myself.

Can you get me on the same page? Thanks

 

[cwegga]

Hello PhysicGuy,

If you're still checking in on this thread, I have a question for you. In post #2, you wrote:

"Since this was recently discussed in another thread. face to face (FTF) or private firearm transactions between states is prohibited by federal law.

Can you get me on the same page? Thanks

I'm not PhysicGuy, but according to my Google the relevant section of law is 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5). I think I can find where it prohibits it, but it is long and convoluted.

(a) It shall be unlawful - ... (1-4 removed)(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to
transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to
any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the
transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not
reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business
entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in
which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall
not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who
is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of
the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;