Feeding their Gun Control Agenda

[monkeybutler]

Fight for your rights. Guarding them will not work.
This is an all out attack.
Let's use the most accurate words here.
This is war being waged against our Second Ammendment and when it falls the rest will too.

It's more like a symbolic, literary war. We are losing. Too much drama, too little literacy.

 

[misterarman]

Regarding suicide, the facts that gun owners never contend with are these:
- most suicide attempts via gun are successful
- sizably more attempts with other methods are not as successful
- the vast majority of people who survive a suicide attempt do NOT attempt again

Gun owners like to state: "if someone is wanting to take their own life they will find a way" - and the data on this disproves such.

There is clear evidence that suicidal ideations are often very low points in people's lives and recovery is not only possible but probable, if they live.

Does the gun influence the choice to attempt suicide? Not all by its lonesome but it is a contributing factor - just like video games hold no clinical sway over decision making in the broader context but can influence an individual along with other aspects of their individual circumstance.

I'm sorry but it sounds like we are talking about another subject again.
The mental health crisis in this country is out of control and I empathize with it.
Unfortunately, taking my rights away isn't going to fix it.

 

[Koda]

I agree but we don't list suicides by hanging as rope deaths. The way statistics are presented is politicized.

Thats because ropes (or any other means to achieve suicide) are not by design intended to be used lethally.

Its a dilemma, how to we convince a larger part of society that has no interest in owning guns that our right to own them are more important than the efficiency of guns used in suicide?

 

[Hueco]

I'm sorry but it sounds like we are talking about another subject again.
The mental health crisis in this country is out of control and I empathize with it.
Unfortunately, taking my rights away isn't going to fix it.

That's where you are wrong, disengaged, or both.

If you could, hypothetically, take away all the guns…

A huge chunk of people who would have otherwise used one to kill themselves will instead never actually attempt suicide - finding the other options unpalatable.

A huge chunk will simply find another method. Of these, a good percentage will fail their attempt and ultimately get treatment, going on to live productive healthy lives, father or mother children, and bring betterment to society.

Removing the guns would literally save lives.

Now, there are many arguments against such a plan but if all you do is sit there wagging your 2A - the other side is the one coming up with the solutions to society's problems and I guarantee they will be solutions that you don't like.

For example, you not having the tools to defend yourself from a mugging after a night out with the Mrs is a sacrifice Karen is willing to make if it means little Suzy and little Timmy never take a 5.56 to the chest while sitting in homeroom.

Last I heard, the R's in TN were trading their right to privacy away to the government. Real big brain move by the R's there.

So unless WE are the ones creating the solutions and propping them up through local representation - expect to lose your rights. Whether it's the 2A directly (thanks D's!) or starting with the 4A (thanks R's!).

 

[nwslopoke]

So unless WE are the ones creating the solutions and propping them up through local representation - expect to lose your rights. Whether it's the 2A directly (thanks D's!) or starting with the 4A (thanks R's!).

I'd say we have offered solutions. Training, education, incarcerating violent offenders, funding mental facilities, just to offer a few. If we look at some states or regions of the US, some are clearly implementing the basics better than others. But those results do not stop agenda driven politicians.

 

[RX-79G]

I'd say we have offered solutions. Training, education, incarcerating violent offenders, funding mental facilities, just to offer a few. If we look at some states or regions of the US, some are clearly implementing the basics better than others. But those results do not stop agenda driven politicians.

But we've also condemned red flag laws, which are designed to react quickly when people are in crisis. I know the objections, but it makes it look like the other efforts aren't serious - especially when they don't actually happen.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Due process?

 

[nwslopoke]

But we've also condemned red flag laws, which are designed to react quickly when people are in crisis. I know the objections, but it makes it look like the other efforts aren't serious - especially when they don't actually happen.

And how did we ever manage before Red Flag laws? Prior to red flag laws the police still showed up and probably arrested the person on a related charge (preferably). I understand following the constitution is inconvenient and hard at times but it's supposed to be.

There are articles of police showing up at the wrong address or shooting the person with the red flag order when attempting to enter their house. I don't know what the stats are of these orders being affective. We can draw our own conclusions. Worrying about how these "compromises" make us look is losing it's strength by each new gun restriction.

 

[Koda]

Due process for gun rights means nothing to the majority of Americans that do not want to own guns. Unfortunately were stuck with red flag laws as a result.
One could argue we have red flag laws because the pro gun community was too slow to reduce gun suicide...

Though Id like to share a link to a pro gun group that has been trying to do just that. Im curious how many here were even aware of this?
Maybe it needs more exposure....

WTTA – Speaking on Gun Issues at MHA’s Regional Policy Meeting

walkthetalkamerica.org

 

[Koda]

And how did we ever manage before Red Flag laws?

Far as I can tell we didnt manage anything at all. Hence the red flag laws...

 

[Xaevian]

the vast majority of people who survive a suicide attempt do NOT attempt again

100% of people that don't survive a suicide attempt do not attempt again.

Maybe make suicide a capital crime.

A huge chunk of people who would have otherwise used one to kill themselves will instead never actually attempt suicide - finding the other options unpalatable.

A huge chunk will simply find another method. Of these, a good percentage will fail their attempt and ultimately get treatment, going on to live productive healthy lives, father or mother children, and bring betterment to society.

That is pure speculation and conjecture. Unless you are a gifted psychic, there is no way to quantify if making firearms magically disappear would lead to a decrease in attempts.

Think about this: the US has the highest level of gun ownership by far than any other country, yet we are not in the top 10 countries with the highest suicide rates.

More than half (journal of internal medicine, 2/25/14) of people that died by suicide saw a medical professional within 4 weeks of their death. Maybe we should ban medical professionals for not successfully intervening.

Suicide is a serious problem. It is a complicated problem. It is not an act of selfishness or cowardice. It is rooted in deep feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and powerlessness frequently mixed with shame and/or guilt.

Everyone on this forum personally knows someone that has seriously considered suicide, even if they never told you. It is that common.

Suicidal thoughts plus deep rage is a recipe for mass murder.

 

[RX-79G]

And how did we ever manage before Red Flag laws? Prior to red flag laws the police still showed up and probably arrested the person on a related charge (preferably). I understand following the constitution is inconvenient and hard at times but it's supposed to be.

There are articles of police showing up at the wrong address or shooting the person with the red flag order when attempting to enter their house. I don't know what the stats are of these orders being affective. We can draw our own conclusions. Worrying about how these "compromises" make us look is losing it's strength by each new gun restriction.

100 million gun owners to protect, and we're worried that red flags will affect our rights overall?


Yes, the "look" matters, of you actually want to win a public policy debate.

 

[monkeybutler]

Yes, the "look" matters, of you actually want to win a public policy debate.

Yes sir, which is why all the grandstanding and drama hurts us, because we seem like a bunch of extremists.

 

[misterarman]

Yes sir, which is why all the grandstanding and drama hurts us, because we seem like a bunch of extremists.

Exactly. If they want to call us extremists, then let's be extremists.
Being rational calm people is not going to end well for us.

 

[Longwalkhome]

Fight for your rights. Guarding them will not work.
This is an all out attack.
Let's use the most accurate words here.
This is war being waged against our Second Ammendment and when it falls the rest will too.

Everyone who knows me or reads my post knows I am deeply cynical. Having lived a rough life of feast or famine I ask myself what's different then compare what I read to what I lived through.

Question one and the foundation of gun control is "why does the government want honest decent people disarmed?"

When I compare history of governments murdering their citizens it's common that those citizens were disarmed and couldn't defend themselves. If yall have a reason that government wants your guns then what's the reason?

It certainly isn't to stop crime, they emptied out the jails during covid, left the border open to millions of criminals and turn us against each other with hate filled propaganda.

My opinion is that when you give up your firearm you are giving up everything from your country to your constitution to your family.

 

[misterarman]

Everyone who knows me or reads my post knows I am deeply cynical. Having lived a rough life of feast or famine I ask myself what's different then compare what I read to what I lived through.

Question one and the foundation of gun control is "why does the government want honest decent people disarmed?"

When I compare history of governments murdering their citizens it's common that those citizens were disarmed and couldn't defend themselves. If yall have a reason that government wants your guns then what's the reason?

It certainly isn't to stop crime, they emptied out the jails during covid, left the border open to millions of criminals and turn us against each other with hate filled propaganda.

My opinion is that when you give up your firearm you are giving up everything from your country to your constitution to your family.

Agreed

 

[Longwalkhome]

Agreed

There is only one reason to disarm people, that's to force them to comply. Comply with what?

 

[nwslopoke]

Yes, the "look" matters, of you actually want to win a public policy debate.

What debate? The Left says agree with us or we'll make long standing norms a felony. The ATF director just lied to congress saying, just remove the piece of plastic and you're legal. A few days later the ATF says **** no. Here's how we feel today. No debate. Just do it.

 

[RX-79G]

What debate? The Left says agree with us or we'll make long standing norms a felony. The ATF director just lied to congress saying, just remove the piece of plastic and you're legal. A few days later the ATF says **** no. Here's how we feel today. No debate. Just do it.

That's just another Jan 6 prison sentence situation. The left makes deals and gets put out when someone changes the rules. Write a law that gives them red flag and universal background checks while making right to all semiautos and mags federally protected. They would take the deal, like they took the 10 year sunset on the Crime Bill

 

[Hashh]

it's infuriating when they let these guys out early and guess what? They go and commit another crime