Expanding case to load non-boat tail rifle pills?

[ma96782]

Got a caliper?

Try measuring......
The bullet you intend to use.
The "expander button".
Try actually seating a bullet. Yes, sometimes you might have to gingerly place the bullet at the case mouth opening (while moving the ram up to seat the bullet). Sometimes the brass might spring back a bit. BUT......in most instances.......it's not REALLY a problem.

Aloha, Mark

 

[DizzyJ]

What is cost difference between RCBS and said sleeved dies? For most of us the bucket has a bottom.

All you need is the seating die.

Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die 7mm PRC

The Forster Bench Rest Ultra Micrometer Seater Die includes all the popular features of the Bench Rest Seater Die, plus an ultra-accurate micrometer...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[ageingstudent]

Yes I'm aware of the inside chamfer. I like to keep this as minimal as possible. Would this Lee die serve this purpose?

Universal Flaring Die

Lee Universal Flaring Die gently flares the case mouth to accept cast bullets without shaving. Includes neck plugs for .22 cal through .45 cal

leeprecision.com

View attachment 1104783

I have one of these and it works quite well. I still deburr the inside of the cartridge so it doesn't scratch the boolit. You will want to flare that case the bare minimum for longevity. Takes a little tinkering but it's worth it.

 

[gmerkt]

I've shaved off more copper rings than I care to admit.

Don't you hate that.

 

[TDH]

If you use the Lee universal expander, you can get "M" die type plugs from NOE. It turns it into an M Die, I use one for 300 blk cast bullets. They have different sizes to choose from. I wasn't able to find a Lyman in stock, so I went that route. Works great.

 

[DLS]

If you are seeing copper rings you have damaged the bullet heel. Will it be enough to affect accuracy? That depends on the other elements of your system. The system includes the overall firearm and the person shooting it. I would imagine most folk's firearms coupled with the skill level of most shooters that it would make little to no difference at all. But why have this when you don't have to, even if you don't see a difference. I always try (within reason) to make the best reloads I can.

If you see the copper ring or feel a little "crunch" as you just begin seating the bullet you probably would be wise to consider an expanding die as you are damaging the bullet. I'm assuming you have properly deburred and chamfered case mouths here. As already stated, if you are going to go the expanding route, you want to do the minimum necessary to get a clean bullet start and make sure you remove any flare during the crimping stage. Any standard roll or taper crimp die can smooth this out, but the Lee Factory Crimp Die is especially good for this, and pretty much any crimping needs.

The Lee Universal Expander is a great tool, but it does have a couple downsides. You need to have consistent case lengths, otherwise the amount of flare will differ on each round. It also has a pretty aggressive angle to expander ram, so it will work the brass more than a Lyman M Die.

The Lyman M Die is designed to open up just enough of the case mouth to allow seating lead bullets without shaving the heel. The expansion portion is parallel to the case axis, so it really does little to overwork the brass, allows a good straight start to the bullet, and still provides enough of a fully sized case neck so that there is plenty of tension to hold the bullet in place. While it's designed for lead projectiles, it works great with jacketed ones too, just don't run the case as far into the die.

This tiny bit of excess working of the case mouth brass can accelerate case neck splits ... but we are talking so little working of this brass that it's more of a theoretical issue than an actual one. If you anneal your brass all concerns go away.

Since this requires more tools and more steps in the loading process don't mess with it unless you find it necessary with your components / loads. If you do have the issues discussed this is a great way to not damage your bullets and get the most from your reloads.

I hope this helps,

 

[DLS]

If you use the Lee universal expander, you can get "M" die type plugs from NOE. It turns it into an M Die, I use one for 300 blk cast bullets. They have different sizes to choose from. I wasn't able to find a Lyman in stock, so I went that route. Works great.

Didn't know NOE had these ... thanks for the tip!

 

[DizzyJ]

Don't you hate that.

With a passion. Screwed up some 175gr SMKs several years back seating them into virgin Lapua brass. Lesson learned. At first I couldn't figure out why I had a tight group and BAM!!! A flyer 2" or so out of the group for no discernible reason. Found out later I was occasionally shaving a ring off the base. Damaging the base is WAY more sensitive to accuracy than damaging the tip. (Bet that shows up in the "misquotes" section)

 

[bionic knees]

never had a problem, no fancy tools just a little patience. single stage press one bullet at a time.

 

[gmerkt]

With a passion. Screwed up some 175gr SMKs several years back seating them into virgin Lapua brass. Lesson learned. At first I couldn't figure out why I had a tight group and BAM!!! A flyer 2" or so out of the group for no discernible reason. Found out later I was occasionally shaving a ring off the base. Damaging the base is WAY more sensitive to accuracy than damaging the tip.

Truth be told, we could start another entire thread on this. Factory ammo is always loaded with clean, unfired brass. As reloaders, we often re-use previously fired cases. Accordingly, the inside of the necks don't start out clean. If you really want to keep the shank of the reloaded bullet unblemished, the inside of the neck of the case needs to be clean. Most of the time, reloaders don't see what happens to the shank of the bullet once it's been seated. So many are unaware this is an issue. Annealing can really leave a crust inside the neck. Even after resizing.

 

[Goodknight]

If you are seeing copper rings you have damaged the bullet heel. Will it be enough to affect accuracy? That depends on the other elements of your system. The system includes the overall firearm and the person shooting it. I would imagine most folk's firearms coupled with the skill level of most shooters that it would make little to no difference at all. But why have this when you don't have to, even if you don't see a difference. I always try (within reason) to make the best reloads I can.

If you see the copper ring or feel a little "crunch" as you just begin seating the bullet you probably would be wise to consider an expanding die as you are damaging the bullet. I'm assuming you have properly deburred and chamfered case mouths here. As already stated, if you are going to go the expanding route, you want to do the minimum necessary to get a clean bullet start and make sure you remove any flare during the crimping stage. Any standard roll or taper crimp die can smooth this out, but the Lee Factory Crimp Die is especially good for this, and pretty much any crimping needs.

The Lee Universal Expander is a great tool, but it does have a couple downsides. You need to have consistent case lengths, otherwise the amount of flare will differ on each round. It also has a pretty aggressive angle to expander ram, so it will work the brass more than a Lyman M Die.

The Lyman M Die is designed to open up just enough of the case mouth to allow seating lead bullets without shaving the heel. The expansion portion is parallel to the case axis, so it really does little to overwork the brass, allows a good straight start to the bullet, and still provides enough of a fully sized case neck so that there is plenty of tension to hold the bullet in place. While it's designed for lead projectiles, it works great with jacketed ones too, just don't run the case as far into the die.

This tiny bit of excess working of the case mouth brass can accelerate case neck splits ... but we are talking so little working of this brass that it's more of a theoretical issue than an actual one. If you anneal your brass all concerns go away.

Since this requires more tools and more steps in the loading process don't mess with it unless you find it necessary with your components / loads. If you do have the issues discussed this is a great way to not damage your bullets and get the most from your reloads.

I hope this helps,

Yes it help! Thank you!

 

[Goodknight]

Didn't know NOE had these ... thanks for the tip!

Who is NOE?

 

[aasbra]

Who is NOE?

NOE Bullet Moulds |

noebulletmolds.com

I've ordered from them a few times for parts to size coated lead bullets. Been happy with their product.

 

[Goodknight]

Got a caliper?

Try measuring......
The bullet you intend to use.
The "expander button".
Try actually seating a bullet. Yes, sometimes you might have to gingerly place the bullet at the case mouth opening (while moving the ram up to seat the bullet). Sometimes the brass might spring back a bit. BUT......in most instances.......it's not REALLY a problem.

Aloha, Mark

I will do that! Yes I have calipers.
I have successfully loaded .308 with "boat-tail" and standard pills. Where this came into question was a recent batch of 762x39 Berry 124g. spire tip pills in some once fired mixed brass. I cleaned with SS media then size/decapped with Lee .311 die, checked, corrected length then deburr and chamfer (light) mouth of case.
I got bullets seated with no shaved copper rings... but did not like trusting seating to laying bullet into ram and driving home. Just looking to refine my process and tap into the wealth of knowledge on NWfirearms.

 

[RVTECH]

If you really want to keep the shank of the reloaded bullet unblemished, the inside of the neck of the case needs to be clean.

This is a good argument for liquid pin tumbling as it leaves the insides of the case necks looking like new.

At a minimum the case necks should be brushed clean and lubed prior to resizing.

 

[Mikej]

but did not like trusting seating to laying bullet into ram and driving home.

I preferer "Gently stroking the ram" to "Laying bullet into the ram and driving it home" Just sayin'

Fairly noobish to loading shouldered rounds here. I had no issues using the above method for older style flat based FMJ bullets in 6.5 Swede. Using Hornady Dies that have the sliding sleeve. I didn't deburr any more than I needed to to smoot the rim. I've come to the conclusion that I will stay with new(er) Hornady for any rifle dies I use.

Flaring the neck sounds like a cluster flop waiting to happen. I wasn't aware if rifle dies have a crimp feature like straight-wall handgun dies do? Only doing -06 and 6.5 Swede I get plenty of neck tension with just the sizing die.

 

[thorborg]

along with a slight flair, having a nearly vertical press helps considerably. My preferred press is an old Pacific because it's a C frame and gives me the most visual and physical access to the die but it mounts on an angle and can make flat bottom bullets starting frustrating, so when I use my flat bottom Sierras or Speers I use the Chucker with a vertical mount.

 

[Goodknight]

along with a slight flair, having a nearly vertical press helps considerably. My preferred press is an old Pacific because it's a C frame and gives me the most visual and physical access to the die but it mounts on an angle and can make flat bottom bullets starting frustrating, so when I use my flat bottom Sierras or Speers I use the Chucker with a vertical mount.

I have that same Pacific press it is a dandy...but not for seating pills.

 

[Goodknight]

I preferer "Gently stroking the ram" to "Laying bullet into the ram and driving it home" Just sayin'

Fairly noobish to loading shouldered rounds here. I had no issues using the above method for older style flat based FMJ bullets in 6.5 Swede. Using Hornady Dies that have the sliding sleeve. I didn't deburr any more than I needed to to smoot the rim. I've come to the conclusion that I will stay with new(er) Hornady for any rifle dies I use.

Flaring the neck sounds like a cluster flop waiting to happen. I wasn't aware if rifle dies have a crimp feature like straight-wall handgun dies do? Only doing -06 and 6.5 Swede I get plenty of neck tension with just the sizing die.

Cracking me up! I will amend my terminology!! Gentle, slow and steady!!

 

[ma96782]

I will do that! Yes I have calipers.
I have successfully loaded .308 with "boat-tail" and standard pills. Where this came into question was a recent batch of 762x39 Berry 124g. spire tip pills in some once fired mixed brass. I cleaned with SS media then size/decapped with Lee .311 die, checked, corrected length then deburr and chamfer (light) mouth of case.
I got bullets seated with no shaved copper rings... but did not like trusting seating to laying bullet into ram and driving home. Just looking to refine my process and tap into the wealth of knowledge on NWfirearms.

Yup....that chamfer of the case mouth helps too (which I forgot to mention). Flat base or BT bullets.....I don't usually run into problems.

Ooops.....I also forgot about "lube". Not only for the outside of the case when resizing brass.

YES.....some folks like mica powder applied, with a case neck brush on the inside of the mouth. Then, some like regular case lube (use a lube that doesn't affect the powder). A tiny bit, just wiped-on-the-inside of the case neck opening/mouth is enough. It helps with taking away the "squeek" when the expander button is going through.

Then IMHO.....bullet seating might just be improved too

Aloha, Mark