Does this sound right to you?

[Vendor Hidden]

Ever since I got into firearms last year, I've paid a lot closer attention when they appear on TV, movies, or in books, and the manner in which they are used and/or discussed. Today I was reading a book and the following seemed odd to me (emphasis added):

The doctor swiveled his tired gaze my way.
"I'm not a firearms expert," he said. "But I'd vote for a twenty-two. Looks that small to me. I'd say we're looking at soft-nose twenty-two-gauge shells. Take the first guy's head, for example. Two small splintery entry wounds and two big messy exit wounds, characteristic of a small soft-nose bullet." I nodded. That's what a soft-nose bullet does. It goes in and flattens out as it does so. Becomes a blob of lead about the size of a quarter tumbling through whatever tissue it meets. Rips a great big exit hole for itself. And a nice slow soft-nose .22 makes sense with a silencer. No point using a silencer except with a subsonic muzzle velocity. Otherwise the bullet is making its own sonic boom all the way to the target, like a tiny fighter plane.

1. "twenty-two gauge shells" - shouldn't that be "twenty-two caliber bullets/rounds"?
2. "about the size of a quarter" - a .22 soft-nose expands to the size of a quarter? That seems a bit large to me. Maybe a dime at the most, but maybe I'm wrong.
   
3. The third part may be technically correct, so I'll give him that. What struck me was that, correct me if I'm wrong, but nearly all handgun rounds are subsonic, aren't they? If so, then there's lots of other calibers that would benefit from a silencer as well, yes? Also, a .22 isn't all that loud in the first place.

So help me out here. Does this passage strike you as odd also?

Edit to Add: The author of this fiction novel is British, so perhaps we're dealing with differences in terminology on the first point.

Read More

 

[Stomper]

Relax kid, it's only a movie.

 

[nehalemguy]

I used to work in a large sporting goods store that had a fairly large gun department.

One day a guy came to the counter and asked to see a .304 Weatherby Penetrator. I told him that I'd never heard of the round. He insisted that he had just read about it and that I obviously didn't know much.

We went back and forth for a few minutes when the light went on in my head. "Where did you read about this round?" I asked.

Answer........an L. Ron Hubbard book.

E

 

[Certaindeaf]

Commander McBragg?

 

[mjbskwim]

Ever since I got into firearms last year, I've paid a lot closer attention when they appear on TV, movies, or in books, and the manner in which they are used and/or discussed. Today I was reading a book and the following seemed odd to me (emphasis added):

1. "twenty-two gauge shells" - shouldn't that be "twenty-two caliber bullets/rounds"?
2. "about the size of a quarter" - a .22 soft-nose expands to the size of a quarter? That seems a bit large to me. Maybe a dime at the most, but maybe I'm wrong.
   
3. The third part may be technically correct, so I'll give him that. What struck me was that, correct me if I'm wrong, but nearly all handgun rounds are subsonic, aren't they? If so, then there's lots of other calibers that would benefit from a silencer as well, yes? Also, a .22 isn't all that loud in the first place.

So help me out here. Does this passage strike you as odd also?

Edit to Add: The author of this fiction novel is British, so perhaps we're dealing with differences in terminology on the first point.

I don't believe that22lr's exit the brain pan very often. They seem to tumble around inside. So the exit wound stuff is bs.
It could expand to a quarter? Doubt it. Never recovered one the size of a dime myself. And it wouldn't be subsonic if it flattened it that much.
And it does not make a sonic boom all the way to the target,it makes it as it exits the barrel.
Not all handgun cartridges are subsonic,but furthermore not all 22lr's are subsonic.
Most calibers benefit from a suppressor,just some do more than others
Next question

 

[Medic!]

Most like a porcelain Glock 7.

 

[tac]

Most of that quote is carp.

We all use the same terminology, on both sides of the Atlantic, and in various languages, translated as necessary. German for muzzle brake is mundungsbremse, literally, uh, muzzle brake.

In English 'English', we say cartridge cases, or simply empties/brass. We don't say 'hulls' or 'shells'. Boats have hulls and field guns fire shells. We don't say 'gauge' either. Shotguns in England are described as a 12 bore [shotgun] and so on. 'Gauge' is used to describe the shotgun cartridge size, or even the shotgun is what is called here, an 'Americanism' that is gaining use, thanks to the plethora of American-influenced gun writers.

And as far as the .22cal 'damage' is concerned, the one corpse I saw that had taken FIVE headshots with a .22cal rimfire round, most likely from some kind of a handgun, had no exit wounds anywhere.

The recovered bullets, ALL of which I saw, were almost refireable, and showed very little damage apart from a very small flattening where they had made initial impact with the forehead.

The noise of the exiting bullet and its propelling gas - IF it is breaking the sound barrier, is a crack. The volume of displaced air is what determines the volume of the perceived sound. An aircraft, weighing many tons, and travelling at the requisite speed, displaces sufficient air to make a 'boom'. A .22 bullet, weighing around 40gr or so, makes a crack, like the vast majority of projectiles fired from hand-held weapons. If you draw butts duty you can hear the crack as a bullet goes overhead.

THE Master of screwing up descriptions of guns and shooting is Gerald Seymour - read his 'Holding the Zero' if you REALLY want to read some gold-standard flarp about shooting.

tac

 

[bbbass]

Speed of sound = 1125fps.



As far as I know, most .22lr is below 1125fps but I do have some boxes that say they are 1250 match, Stingers, etc. There are some 9mm that are 1250 and some that are way below.

bb

 

[tac]

Most, if not all .22cal ammunition, is test-fired for velocity in a standard length barrel, and that barrel is a rifle barrel of between 24 and 26 inches in length, not a handgun barrel.

It is very unlikely that ANY .22cal rimfire bullet meets the stated velocity in a handgun barrel.

tac

 

[Certaindeaf]

I do know that vorpal blades go snicker-snack!

 

[bbbass]

Most, if not all .22cal ammunition, is test-fired for velocity in a standard length barrel, and that barrel is a rifle barrel of between 24 and 26 inches in length, not a handgun barrel.

It is very unlikely that ANY .22cal rimfire bullet meets the stated velocity in a handgun barrel.

tac

True dat?

 

[tac]

Range Report: .22LR claimed velocities vs real velocities from rifle and handgun

Got curious about what the velocity differences with .22s are from a rifle and a handgun. While I was at it, I thought it would be just tons of fun to see how how the factories claimed velocities stacked up against what I got from real guns. So, took my Chrony to the range today for some fun and games.

Temps were around 70, sky was gorgeous, winds were light.
Guns were a Ruger 22/45 Target model with 5 1/2" barrel for the handgun, and a plain jane, all original Ruger 10/22 Carbine for the rifle. 5 shot strings, misfires were made up.

All ammo was newly purchased, with the exception of the Federal Champion

Results were as follows:

CCI Blazer 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = 1235 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1086 fps, SD = 19 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1214 fps, SD = 15 fps

Federal Champion standard velocity 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = darned if I know, it's Federal's 714 load, and they don't list it any more.
22/45 Avg velocity = 979 fps, SD = 33 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1103 fps, SD = 15 fps

Federal Lightning 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = 1240 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1050 fps, SD = 42 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1208 fps, SD = 26 fps

Remington Golden Bullet 36gr HP
Factory claimed = 1280 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1114 fps, SD = 29 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1265 fps, SD = 19 fps

Remington Thunderbolt 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = 1255 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 984 fps, SD = 50 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1056 fps, SD = 53 fps

Winchester Wildcat 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = 1255 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1060 fps, SD = 31 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1197 fps, SD = 32 fps

Winchester SuperX 37gr LHP
Factory claimed = 1280 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1071 fps, SD = 34 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1268 fps, SD = 7 fps

Federal red box bulk 36gr copper plated hp
Factory claimed = 1260 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1114 fps, SD = 18 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1267 fps, SD = 22 fps

Winchester 333 bulk 36gr plated hp
Factory claimed = 1280 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1031 fps, SD = 31 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1241 fps, SD = 32 fps

Winchester XPert HV 36gr LHP
Factory claimed = 1280 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1082 fps, SD = 8 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1230 fps, SD = 18 fps

Sooooooooooooooooo, average handgun velocities were ca.200fps slower than the carbine.

tac

 

[tac]

And...............

'Velocity by the inch' project.............

.22 Results in fps

CCI 27 gr.
CPHP CCI
29 gr.
CPRN CCI
32 gr.
CPHP
Stinger Remington
33 gr.
HVTCHP
Yellow
Jacket Remington
36 gr.
HVTCS
Viper Remington
36 gr.
Golden
Bullet
HP CCI
40 gr.
CPRN
Mini-
Mag Winchester
40 gr.
Super X
RN CCI
40 gr.
CPHP
Velocitor Aguila
60 gr. SSS

18" 1158 1114 1510 1407 1342 1181 1212 1250 1366 903
17" 1116 1060 1502 1396 1304 1178 1206 1227 1376 903
16" 1130 1094 1489 1398 1306 1185 1207 1251 1340 900
15" 1133 1083 1496 1369 1305 1178 1211 1241 1336 879
14" 1096 1103 1483 1334 1294 1163 1224 1222 1349 883
13" 1098 1071 1496 1381 1296 1147 1183 1248 1341 891
12" 1089 1074 1476 1334 1293 1167 1221 1235 1335 892
11" 1092 1079 1463 1360 1280 1180 1210 1223 1338 881
10" 1115 1065 1452 1304 1270 1150 1169 1193 1316 859
9" 1092 1042 1430 1315 1267 1129 1169 1203 1275 868
8" 1092 1048 1396 1271 1212 1101 1158 1191 1268 857
7" 1060 1056 1367 1284 1229 1073 1139 1162 1244 820
6" 1049 993 1321 1249 1165 1063 1101 1133 1093 824
5" 1029 1014 1286 1214 1156 1009 1097 1070 1172 796
4" 956 948 1191 1113 1104 984 1014 1043 1120 762
3" 907 893 1129 1045 998 890 948 965 1026 726
2" 861 860 974 945 875 846 856 862 882 663

Real world weapon

CCI 27 gr.
CCI 29 gr.
CCI 32 gr.
Stinger Remington 33 gr.
Yellow Jacket Remington 36 gr.
Viper Remington 36 gr.
Golden Bullet HP CCI 40 gr.
Mini-Mag Winchester 40 gr.
Super X RN CCI 40 gr.
Velocitor Aguila 60 gr.

Winchester
Model 63
23" barrel 1031 1067 1514 1333 1256 1181 1182 1215 1343 867

Kimber
Classic
22" barrel 1141 1083 1569 1430 1351 1293 1242 1311 1401 914

Walther
G22
20" barrel 1059 1043 1467 1342 1249 1176 1174 1228 1325 831

Ruger
10/22
18.5" barrel 1102 1063 1478 1359 1279 1158 1199 1237 1304 864

Remington
597-VTR
16.25" barrel 1128 1065 1447 1326 1243 1123 1177 1212 1311 876

Pietta Puma PPS
16" barrel 1081 1061 1462 1330 1265 1180 1183 1193 1318 863

Gaucher Silhouette
10" barrel 1063 1051 1376 1285 1237 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a

Ruger Mark II
10" barrel 1102 1030 1457 1321 1277 1184 1160 1212 1299 859

S&W 617
5-7/8" barrel 999 983 1205 1137 1094 1008 1046 1082 1131 781

Ruger Mark I
5.5" barrel 1006 956 1294 1172 1072 1026 1060 1112 1181 778

Kimber 1911 Rimfire Target
5" barrel 1014 966 1250 1150 1119 1011 1030 1066 1134 775

Phoenix HP 22
4-7/8" barrel 1002 943 1230 1144 1064 999 1019 1036 1087 779

Olympic Arms Whitney Wolverine
4.5" barrel 971 951 1215 1098 1089 974 1026 1001 1086 776

Ruger Bearcat
4" barrel 984 945 1085 1091 1018 944 979 983 1044 741

Walther P22
3.5" barrel 914 897 1112 1019 977 925 967 960 998 716

Phoenix HP-22
3" barrel 918 880 1073 1003 947 910 906 907 988 710

Beretta 21A
2.5" barrel 841 846 940 943 914 782 851 845 895 654

Ruger Sp101
2.25" barrel 966 935 1031 1084 973 926 975 973 1059 738

Stinger Pen Gun
2" barrel 770 772 977 892 780 672 804 818 854 632

NAA Mini
1" barrel 767 736 771 786 760 666 723 696 767 577

Hope this helps.

tac

 

[bbbass]

Good to know. Since I don't own a .22 pistol anymore, it's great that I can get close to the stated 1250 with my heavy barrel 10/22. I'll be sure to use a suppressor next time I want to nail someone in the head.

Does a .22lr cartridge, out of a rifle, that retains its above speed of sound fps crack all along the path? Does it depend on where the listener/pickup is in relation to the muzzle?

BTW, I just love when writers talk about safeties on revolvers or Glocks.

 

[Dungannon]

Speed of sound in air = 1125 fps at 68*F.

Faster still in liquids and solids; e.g.. 343 m/s in air, 1,484 m/s in water and 5,120 m/s in iron

 

[Certaindeaf]

Faster still in liquids and solids; e.g.. 343 m/s in air, 1,484 m/s in water and 5,120 m/s in iron

So fast it's in "m's"!

 

[KeepnitReel]

What no sub-sonic testing in your report, getting lazy huh ??!!


Just kidding, very impressive report. Copied and Pasted for future use. Thank you.

Range Report: .22LR claimed velocities vs real velocities from rifle and handgun

Got curious about what the velocity differences with .22s are from a rifle and a handgun. While I was at it, I thought it would be just tons of fun to see how how the factories claimed velocities stacked up against what I got from real guns. So, took my Chrony to the range today for some fun and games.

Temps were around 70, sky was gorgeous, winds were light.
Guns were a Ruger 22/45 Target model with 5 1/2" barrel for the handgun, and a plain jane, all original Ruger 10/22 Carbine for the rifle. 5 shot strings, misfires were made up.

All ammo was newly purchased, with the exception of the Federal Champion

Results were as follows:

CCI Blazer 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = 1235 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1086 fps, SD = 19 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1214 fps, SD = 15 fps

Federal Champion standard velocity 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = darned if I know, it's Federal's 714 load, and they don't list it any more.
22/45 Avg velocity = 979 fps, SD = 33 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1103 fps, SD = 15 fps

Federal Lightning 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = 1240 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1050 fps, SD = 42 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1208 fps, SD = 26 fps

Remington Golden Bullet 36gr HP
Factory claimed = 1280 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1114 fps, SD = 29 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1265 fps, SD = 19 fps

Remington Thunderbolt 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = 1255 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 984 fps, SD = 50 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1056 fps, SD = 53 fps

Winchester Wildcat 40gr LRN
Factory claimed = 1255 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1060 fps, SD = 31 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1197 fps, SD = 32 fps

Winchester SuperX 37gr LHP
Factory claimed = 1280 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1071 fps, SD = 34 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1268 fps, SD = 7 fps

Federal red box bulk 36gr copper plated hp
Factory claimed = 1260 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1114 fps, SD = 18 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1267 fps, SD = 22 fps

Winchester 333 bulk 36gr plated hp
Factory claimed = 1280 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1031 fps, SD = 31 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1241 fps, SD = 32 fps

Winchester XPert HV 36gr LHP
Factory claimed = 1280 fps
22/45 Avg velocity = 1082 fps, SD = 8 fps
10/22 Avg velocity = 1230 fps, SD = 18 fps

Sooooooooooooooooo, average handgun velocities were ca.200fps slower than the carbine.

tac

And...............

'Velocity by the inch' project.............

.22 Results in fps

CCI 27 gr.
CPHP CCI
29 gr.
CPRN CCI
32 gr.
CPHP
Stinger Remington
33 gr.
HVTCHP
Yellow
Jacket Remington
36 gr.
HVTCS
Viper Remington
36 gr.
Golden
Bullet
HP CCI
40 gr.
CPRN
Mini-
Mag Winchester
40 gr.
Super X
RN CCI
40 gr.
CPHP
Velocitor Aguila
60 gr. SSS

18" 1158 1114 1510 1407 1342 1181 1212 1250 1366 903
17" 1116 1060 1502 1396 1304 1178 1206 1227 1376 903
16" 1130 1094 1489 1398 1306 1185 1207 1251 1340 900
15" 1133 1083 1496 1369 1305 1178 1211 1241 1336 879
14" 1096 1103 1483 1334 1294 1163 1224 1222 1349 883
13" 1098 1071 1496 1381 1296 1147 1183 1248 1341 891
12" 1089 1074 1476 1334 1293 1167 1221 1235 1335 892
11" 1092 1079 1463 1360 1280 1180 1210 1223 1338 881
10" 1115 1065 1452 1304 1270 1150 1169 1193 1316 859
9" 1092 1042 1430 1315 1267 1129 1169 1203 1275 868
8" 1092 1048 1396 1271 1212 1101 1158 1191 1268 857
7" 1060 1056 1367 1284 1229 1073 1139 1162 1244 820
6" 1049 993 1321 1249 1165 1063 1101 1133 1093 824
5" 1029 1014 1286 1214 1156 1009 1097 1070 1172 796
4" 956 948 1191 1113 1104 984 1014 1043 1120 762
3" 907 893 1129 1045 998 890 948 965 1026 726
2" 861 860 974 945 875 846 856 862 882 663

Real world weapon

CCI 27 gr.
CCI 29 gr.
CCI 32 gr.
Stinger Remington 33 gr.
Yellow Jacket Remington 36 gr.
Viper Remington 36 gr.
Golden Bullet HP CCI 40 gr.
Mini-Mag Winchester 40 gr.
Super X RN CCI 40 gr.
Velocitor Aguila 60 gr.

Winchester
Model 63
23" barrel 1031 1067 1514 1333 1256 1181 1182 1215 1343 867

Kimber
Classic
22" barrel 1141 1083 1569 1430 1351 1293 1242 1311 1401 914

Walther
G22
20" barrel 1059 1043 1467 1342 1249 1176 1174 1228 1325 831

Ruger
10/22
18.5" barrel 1102 1063 1478 1359 1279 1158 1199 1237 1304 864

Remington
597-VTR
16.25" barrel 1128 1065 1447 1326 1243 1123 1177 1212 1311 876

Pietta Puma PPS
16" barrel 1081 1061 1462 1330 1265 1180 1183 1193 1318 863

Gaucher Silhouette
10" barrel 1063 1051 1376 1285 1237 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a

Ruger Mark II
10" barrel 1102 1030 1457 1321 1277 1184 1160 1212 1299 859

S&W 617
5-7/8" barrel 999 983 1205 1137 1094 1008 1046 1082 1131 781

Ruger Mark I
5.5" barrel 1006 956 1294 1172 1072 1026 1060 1112 1181 778

Kimber 1911 Rimfire Target
5" barrel 1014 966 1250 1150 1119 1011 1030 1066 1134 775

Phoenix HP 22
4-7/8" barrel 1002 943 1230 1144 1064 999 1019 1036 1087 779

Olympic Arms Whitney Wolverine
4.5" barrel 971 951 1215 1098 1089 974 1026 1001 1086 776

Ruger Bearcat
4" barrel 984 945 1085 1091 1018 944 979 983 1044 741

Walther P22
3.5" barrel 914 897 1112 1019 977 925 967 960 998 716

Phoenix HP-22
3" barrel 918 880 1073 1003 947 910 906 907 988 710

Beretta 21A
2.5" barrel 841 846 940 943 914 782 851 845 895 654

Ruger Sp101
2.25" barrel 966 935 1031 1084 973 926 975 973 1059 738

Stinger Pen Gun
2" barrel 770 772 977 892 780 672 804 818 854 632

NAA Mini
1" barrel 767 736 771 786 760 666 723 696 767 577

Hope this helps.

tac

 

[The Heretic]

The author was totally winging it and doesn't know his anal orifice from a hole in the ground when it comes to firearms.

As for LRN (Lead Round Nose) projectiles in a standard velocity .22 LR cartridge fired from either rifle or handgun, all the gel tests I have seen, the projectile did not expand - you could theoretically shoot it again. Now if it hits something hard, then in my experience they tend to deform in various ways.

Some of the HP ammo, if fired from a rifle, will expand in gel, some of the higher velocity ammo will expand even from a handgun. The 22 RF ammo is very velocity dependent in its performance from what I have observed.

Sometimes they will not even penetrate something hard - I have had to dispatch a number of injured animals and some have had thick skulls, and it seemed they did not penetrate - the power just isn't there.

 

[tac]

Good to know. Since I don't own a .22 pistol anymore, it's great that I can get close to the stated 1250 with my heavy barrel 10/22. I'll be sure to use a suppressor next time I want to nail someone in the head.

Does a .22lr cartridge, out of a rifle, that retains its above speed of sound fps crack all along the path? Does it depend on where the listener/pickup is in relation to the muzzle?

BTW, I just love when writers talk about safeties on revolvers or Glocks.

If you are near the muzzle, it goes bang - that's the explosion of the propellant IN the chamber plus the noise of the expanding gas as it emerges from the muzzle behind the bullet. If the bullet is supersonic as it goes past you, then you will hear the crack, just once. To hear it again is impossible - it has gone by you on its way to the target. If the bullet is travelling at LESS than the speed of sound, then you will hear a very sharp and sudden hissssssssssss - close your mouth and say 'suttttt' - is about as near as you can get. That goes for stuff like .45ACP from a Thompson, for instance. However, because of the peculiarities inherent in moving a non-circular cross-section projectile, a hexagonal Whitworth bullet, for example, through the medium of still air, the sound you get then is a very peculiar 'fwrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr' that you seem to be able to hear coming, same as Minié ball can be heard coming - a matter of sheer mass. So General John Sedgwick, shot in the head at Spottsylvania Courthouse in early May of 1864, may actually have heard the fatal shot heading for him - if you'll forgive the awful pun.

Poor bugger.

tac

 

[HB of CJ]

Bad writing. Bad editing. That book desperately needed a knowledgeable reader to proof read it. Do publishing houses even do that today? I also have read some very bad stuff. How much do they $pay$ proof readers nowadays? Might be a good home job?

EXCELLENT INFORMATION EVERYONE AND THANK YOU!