Does a 1884 trapdoor require an FFL??

[bwpaull]

Did a trade with a guy and ended up with a Springfield 1884 trapdoor rifle made in 1888. I always read the law as any firearm made prior to and including 1889 was an antique. The dude at ticklicker said that only applies to muzzle loaders and made me pay for a background check and transfer fee.
Is there a newer law on the books or is everyone I've ever talked to about this wrong?

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[Andy54Hawken]

The ammunition fired here is the issue...
Even though the rifle is old enough...it fires "conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition".
The .45-70 cartridge fits this description.

The actual quote from the ATF runs like this :
"For the purpose of the National Firearms Act, the term "Antique Firearms" means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898....
...and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898 , for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."*

Not that I agree with or like that definition.
If it was up to me...I wouldn't have anything about ammunition in the definition....
But I digress.

The .45-70 cartridge is still manufactured in the US...and readily available ..so that is the issue here.
( And yes , I know the most commonly seen .45-70 ammo is not "Trapdoor safe"...but it is still .45-70 ammo )
Andy
* I did leave out the part with matchlocks , flintlocks , etc...in the interest of brevity.
Also bolded the all important words here : no and not.

 

[bwpaull]

The ammunition fired here is the issue...
Even though the rifle is old enough...it fires "conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition".
The .45-70 cartridge fits this description.

The actual quote from the ATF runs like this :
"For the purpose of the National Firearms Act, the term "Antique Firearms" means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898....
...and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898 , for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."*

Not that I agree with or like that definition.
If it was up to me...I wouldn't have anything about ammunition in the definition....
But I digress.

The .45-70 cartridge is still manufactured in the US...and readily available ..so that is the issue here.
( And yes , I know the most commonly seen .45-70 ammo is not "Trapdoor safe"...but it is still .45-70 ammo )
Andy
* I did leave out the part with matchlocks , flintlocks , etc...in the interest of brevity.
Also bolded the all important words here : no and not.

Thanks for clearing that up! Glad they know what they're talking about then. Seems ridiculous that gunshops need a law degree to sell firearms.

 

[2Wheels4Ever]

I'm no lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt. The ATF doesn't seem to care about antique firearms, no matter the caliber. To my knowledge, nobody has ever been convicted for selling a center-fire, cartridge chambered antique gun without going through a background check.

Here is what the ATF has to say about the matter.

Is a NICS background check required for the transfer of antique firearms? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

No. Because weapons that meet the definition of an “antique firearm” are not firearms subject to the Gun Control Act, licensees need not conduct a background check when transferring an antique firearm. [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3), 921(a)(16), 922(t); 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.102]

www.atf.gov

Is a NICS background check required for the transfer of antique firearms?

No. Because weapons that meet the definition of an "antique firearm" are not firearms subject to the Gun Control Act, licensees need not conduct a background check when transferring an antique firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3), 921(a)(16), 922(t); 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.102]

 

[2Wheels4Ever]

To add, I think Andy has an accurate interpretation of the law in regards to how it's written. Just that the ATF doesn't use this interpretation on how they enforce the law.

 

[40Garand]

Did a trade with a guy and ended up with a Springfield 1884 trapdoor rifle made in 1888. I always read the law as any firearm made prior to and including 1889 was an antique. The dude at ticklicker said that only applies to muzzle loaders and made me pay for a background check and transfer fee.
Is there a newer law on the books or is everyone I've ever talked to about this wrong?

Just an fyi there's always going to be a few employees ( Salem and Corvallis) that read alot from the internet and love to spew gun counter wisdom any chance they get.

 

[quneur]

"The .45-70, also known as the .45-70 Government, .45-70 Springfield, and .45-21⁄10" Sharps, is a .45 caliber rifle cartridge originally holding 70 grains of black powder that was developed at the U.S. Army's Springfield Armory for use in the Springfield Model 1873."

"Realizing that single-shot black-powder rifles were rapidly becoming obsolete, the U.S. Army adopted the Norwegian-designed .30-40 Krag caliber"

-Wikipedia

My understanding is the 1884 model is meant for black powder ammunition and it is only found in specialty shops.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Again....
I don't like or agree with the ATF definition....If it was up to me...I would leave the ammunition statement out of it.

For those who want to argue about the ammunition and whether or not it fits or is usable or whatever else....
I would not want to do so against the ATF or in court.
Since the ATF definition makes no specific difference between smokeless or black powder ammunition in its wording.
As in using those exact terms...which leads to arguments over ammunition and what a firearm was meant for...
Versus what it can use..even if it can't use it safely.
Just something to consider...

Again I don't agree...and I would prefer just a simple date , say like 1898.
As in if the firearm was made in 1898 or earlier...or it is a copy , replica or reproduction of a firearm made in 1898 or earlier.
Or if it is a muzzle loading firearm , no matter the date of manufacture....then it is an antique and not subject to ATF rulings.

However I don't make laws , rules , restrictions and the like...I only grumble about 'em.
Andy

Edit to add...
And yes I know that hundreds if not more , 1873 Springfield rifles and carbines have been sold and will continue to be sold without a FFL....
However...I am not convinced that meets the ATF ruling...
Nor would I "tell on" or try to stop a sale of one not going through a FFL.

 

[Alexx1401]

NOT a lawyer, did NOT stay in a Holiday Inn last night. So this is worth what is being paid for. I looked at the auction and they had a LOT of these for sale. The first 3 I clicked on had one thing in common. Said they could direct ship it to you no FFL Here is a shot of just one of them but everyone I looked at said the same FWIW

 

[j61wa]

Well if this issue went to the Supreme Court, it would likely be a 5-4 decision. Even the opinions of our so-called experts wouldn't agree.

 

[CLT65]

I'm not an expert so don't take my word for gospel, but I have seen this confusion before in regards to the technical definition of antique as it applies to firearm laws.

The actual quote from the ATF runs like this :
"For the purpose of the National Firearms Act, the term "Antique Firearms" means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898....
...and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898 , for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."*

You'll notice that this is the definition "For the purpose of the National Firearms Act". The 1934 NFA applies to NFA-class firearms, such as machine guns and short-barrel rifles. It has nothing to do with background checks.

The 1968 Gun Control Act has a different definition for its specific purposes, that says it applies only to firearms manufactured after 1898, without regard to ammunition or chambering.

Some specific states define and control antique guns more strictly, but to my knowledge Oregon does not. The employee was absolutely wrong, technically and legally.

I have seen shops that err on the side of caution though, as a policy. I once bought a vintage H&R revolver that I knew for a fact (provable by serial number) was made pre-98. They insisted on the BGC, said it was store policy for anything that shot cartridges, because they couldn't be experts on the minutia of those kinds of guns. Their store, their rules; the price was right and worth the extra $10, even if it wasn't legally required.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I am not going to respond further here.
I gave the ATF definition of what they see as a antique firearm.
I also stated that I disagreed with it.

How someone else views it , is on them.
'Andy

 

[CLT65]

I am not going to respond further here.
I gave the ATF definition of what they see as a antique firearm.
I also stated that I disagreed with it.

How someone else views it , is on them.
'Andy

No offense intended Andy, but while the legal definition you gave is correct, the application in this case is not. That was a strict legal definition for NFA arms, not regular rifles.

Any law that is passed defines the terms used for the purposes of that law, and often different laws give slightly different definitions for the terms used. That's what's going on here; the '34 NFA and the '68 GCA have slightly different definitions of "antique".

 

[bionic knees]

with the nit picking that could happen I don't fault the gun store for covering their arse. if they don't nobody else is going to.

 

[bwpaull]

with the nit picking that could happen I don't fault the gun store for covering their arse. if they don't nobody else is going to.

Sad but that's how I see it too.

 

[bwpaull]

I am not going to respond further here.
I gave the ATF definition of what they see as a antique firearm.
I also stated that I disagreed with it.

How someone else views it , is on them.
'Andy

Appreciate the input. Thank you

 

[User 1234]

Definition: antique firearm from 18 USC § 921(a)(16) | LII / Legal Information Institute

Federal law, for Gun Control Act purposes, sweeps a lot of guns within the definition of "antique firearm." State laws are often more strict and add requirements. Washington, for example, has a different definition than the feds. I do not know about Oregon.

 

[User 1234]

Definition: antique firearm from 26 USC § 5845(g) | LII / Legal Information Institute

Here is the federal definition for NFA purposes, such as evaluating whether federal law allows installation of a buttstock on a pistol without creating an SBR, etc.

 

[Idaho44]

Since there is data available to load smokeless powder (4198) in 'trapdoors' an FFL can require a BGC. NOT unheard of them (FFL) requiring one for "repo" revolvers with a cartridge conversion cylinder, even though you can order said conversion online and not have to do a BGC. The ammo bit is the 'gotcha'.

 

[CLT65]

No, no, no, the ammo part is not the relevant bit. There are TWO definitions here- one for the '34 NFA, and one for the '68 CGA.

Does nobody understand the differences between the NFA and the GCA? NFA does not apply to a regular full-length, non-automatic rifle like a trap door Springfield. There's nothing vague about this; it's something that's distinctly defined and has been clearly understood for the last 56 years.

A cartridge rifle like the Trapdoor, manufactured before 1898, per federal law, does not require a 4473 or BGC. That's a simple, indisputable fact, and anyone who says differently does not understand the law. (added- no offense intended towards anyone. I didn't understand either until a few years ago when it was pointed out and explained to me)


To clarify, this pre-98 gun IS subject to the NFA definition, unless it's an obscure, unavailable cartridge. Why? Because it's an NFA weapon, a machine gun.



This other pre-98 gun, on the other hand, is not subject to the NFA definition, because it's not a machine gun. As a regular rifle, is is subject to the GCA definition of "antique", which only restricts cartridge weapons that are reproductions of antiques.


I was confused by this once as well, but when you look at the specific definitions of the two different classes of firearms, directly on the ATF website, and take the time to understand exactly what they say, it's very clear. There's really no ambiguity. A reproduction Trapdoor Springfield would absolutely require a BGC, but an original absolutely would not.