National Confused about Tac 14 and why it cant be a pistol

[The Heretic]

My Tac-13 was listed as a "Firearm" and I was warned by the shop that I could not carry it concealed as I could with a handgun. because it is NOT a pistol.
But I was able to find a brace for it!

You can put a brace on 'firearms' such as the Tac-14/Shockwave because the brace is not a stock, it is an accessory. It does not change the classification of any firearm, whether it is a rifle, a pistol or a 'firearm'. I have a brace on one of my Shockwaves. Note that if the brace is a folding brace, that because it is an accessory the OAL is measured with the brace folded - just like it is with a pistol, unlike a rifle.

You can also put a vertical grip on the forearm of a Tac-14/Shockwave because they are not pistols.

You can also replace the raptor grip with a pistol grip, as long as the OAL length of the 'firearm" remains 26"+. An example is the Knoxx breacher grip.

What you cannot do is put a stock on a 'firearm' - at least not without also putting an 18" barrel on prior to putting the stock on it. I am guessing the if you put a stock and 18" barrel on a 'firearm' (such as the Shockwave), that you could not go back to it being a 'firearm' as the interpretation of the law (by the ATF) is that the 'firearm' is a firearm because it was never a shotgun because it never had a stock on it. If you put a stock on it, then it is a shotgun, and therefore it cannot go back to being a 'firearm'.

This seems to be a grey area for a number of reasons:

1) I have never seen this addressed in any articles, much less ATF rules/regs/FAQs.

2) I have never seen any court cases on this. Yet.

3) My personal observation of Mossberg Shockwaves is that there is nothing on the firearm that denotes it is anything other than a Mossberg model 590.

I assume therefore that the only way any LEO would know for certain that a particular Mossberg model 590 is a Shockwave and not a shotgun with a 13" barrel, would be by checking the serial number.

Conversely, the only way that a LEO (e.g., an ATF agent) would know that a Mossberg Shockwave ever had a stock and 18" barrel on it (thereby making it a shotgun) would be if for whatever reason, they checked (or officially recorded/noted somewhere) the serial number of the 'firearm' while it was in that configuration.

So I am going by my personal interpretation and reading of the laws/regs/etc. which may be completely wrong.

Personally, to avoid any such issues, I would just never put a stock on a Shockwave, whether it had the 18" barrel or not: I find that I can shoot the Shockwave with the brace, almost as effectively as with a stock. If I want to put an 18" barrel on it, then I can do that while not adding a stock, thereby never changing the classification of the gun from a 'firearm' to a shotgun, and avoiding any legal issues later when I put the shorter barrel back on it - while also probably avoiding issues in locales where the Shockwave 'firearms' are not legal (California?).

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I'm confused why the Tac 14 can't be made to be a pistol, similar to way ARs can be pistols.

An AR can have a short barrel, and no stock, and be sold as a pistol. Perfectly legal. They are pistols, not "firearm"

Why can't the 870 be sold the same way? Short barrel, with no stock, and mfd'd as a pistol. Why must it go the "firearn" not concealable route, to have a short barrel?

Same as with shockwave, why bother when u can have or make an 870 w/ 18" barrel, folding stock and pistol grip.

To get something significantly shorter pay the money for a stamp and you can have really short like the shorty pumps or like countrygent showed above.

 

[The Heretic]

Same as with shockwave, why bother when u can have or make an 870 w/ 18" barrel, folding stock and pistol grip.

To get something significantly shorter pay the money for a stamp and you can have really short like the shorty pumps or like countrygent showed above.
View attachment 697457

Why?

Because it isn't an NFA firearm:

1) You don't have to pay for the stamp. You don't have to wait for the stamp. You don't have to maintain the paperwork and/or carry a copy with you when you take the firearm some place. If you are in a "free" state, you can buy it from a private party and the gov doesn't even know you have it. Want to give one to a family member? No problem, just do it. Want to sell it? No problem.

There are people like me where not having to deal with the ATF and not having that info tracked by them is an advantage.

2) If you travel across state lines with it, you don't need to tell the ATF.

Ain't no bother.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Why?

Because it isn't an NFA firearm:

1) You don't have to pay for the stamp. You don't have to wait for the stamp. You don't have to maintain the paperwork and/or carry a copy with you when you take the firearm some place. If you are in a "free" state, you can buy it from a private party and the gov doesn't even know you have it. Want to give one to a family member? No problem, just do it. Want to sell it? No problem.

There are people like me where not having to deal with the ATF and not having that info tracked by them is an advantage.

2) If you travel across state lines with it, you don't need to tell the ATF.

Ain't no bother.

My point is that most poeple found out with the shockwave that it's fairly useless and you can get almost the same overal length by having an 18" barrel with pistol grip and folding stock. The stock gives u much more control and no stamp is required. U can add a one point sling mount to the back also if desired. These can be easily made by shortening the barrel on an 870/ mossberg 500 or buying with a short barrel.

If a person wants something truly short (not like the shockwave/tac14 or 18" with pistol grip) then u can go the stamp/SBS route.

Love this video where Ian is tactfully pointing out its uselessness. He has another video where he isn't being tactful can't remember which one it was but pretty funny.

 

[Ops]

I think it depends on dealer.

My Mossberg Shockwave is registered as a Pistol.

might want to find a dealer who wont get you thrown in jail

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

its because of the smooth bore. same reason the franklin armory reformation is a firearm

 

[TTSX]

Be pretty neat if they made one with a rifled slug barrel. I have a small handful of 1.5 oz slugs I think could be a real hoot

 

[Kruel J]

its because of the smooth bore. same reason the franklin armory reformation is a firearm

Yeah, I've stated it twice already. Maybe you saying it will make everyone believe it?

 

[TTSX]

Smooth bore = not a pistol

 

[Kruel J]

Smooth bore = not a pistol

Ok, maybe NOW?

 

[Member 34319]

Because....

Smoothbore!

 

[GWS]

So, what your saying is, A smooth bore is NOT a pistol?
So Kruel J wasn't just making this up?

Wow...

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Unless it's a muzzle loader

They make a cartridge version but is has a... wait for it... rifled barrel!

Original Howdah Pistol

Original Howdah Pistol

www.taylorsfirearms.com

 

[Member 34319]

You are all missing the point.
I'm not asking why the tac14 isn't a listol.

I'm asking why a firearm like the tac14, can't be manufactured as a pistol. Where kength isn't an issue There ARE already many pistols that fire shotgun shells.

But generally all that is required is for a manufacturer to make a pistol with a certain mfg run and it's pistol. Provided it meets the definition of a pistol. Pistols can have short barrels. Pistols can't have stocks. Hmmm can pistols have smooth bores? I think thats the right answer. All the pistols I know of that shoot shotgun shells are rifled barrels

Pistols CAN NOT have smooth bores, per the definition of Pistol and the definition of a Shotgun by the ATF.

If a weapon has a smoothbore, it falls under the definition of a shotgun, NOT pistol. (Unless it isn't a firearm, IE muzzleloader)

If a weapon is made outside the length definitions of a shotgun, and was never manufactured with a STOCK, it falls outside of the definition of a shotgun. HOWEVER, that does not mean it now falls into the definition of a pistol, or even an AOW. Hence, it falls under the ATFs definition of "firearm" a catch all definition for weapons made that do not fit into the other definitions.

Not sure what else to say.

 

[The Heretic]

My point is that most poeple found out with the shockwave that it's fairly useless and you can get almost the same overal length by having an 18" barrel with pistol grip and folding stock. The stock gives u much more control and no stamp is required. U can add a one point sling mount to the back also if desired. These can be easily made by shortening the barrel on an 870/ mossberg 500 or buying with a short barrel.

If a person wants something truly short (not like the shockwave/tac14 or 18" with pistol grip) then u can go the stamp/SBS route.

Love this video where Ian is tactfully pointing out its uselessness. He has another video where he isn't being tactful can't remember which one it was but pretty funny.

Everyone has their own opinion on any given firearm as to what use it is.

For quite a while I thought they were a gimmick, then, at a time when I was wanting to upgrade from the Mossberg 500 I had to a KSG or a DP-12 (both bullpups), someone here had a Shockwave Marinecote with a brace on it.

It occurred to me, that the length was the same or shorter than the bullpups, a lot less expensive, a lot lighter, slimmer and easier to partially conceal alongside my body when walking around my neighborhood/property (20 forested acres on a mountain that is extra rural).

Also, it would be a better "truck gun".

As for how it shoots, it is no harder to shoot than a pistol grip only shotgun except that it is lighter and therefore has more recoil.

With a laser/light and buckshot, it is useful for me for home/property defense. If I need to go to the back acreage or the shop to see if someone/something is messing around there when they shouldn't be, it is handier to grab and throw in the truck. If it is a neighbor or I run into a neighbor, then it is easier to just hold it along the off side of my body and at least partially conceal it - that actually happened once; a neighbor I had asked to keep an eye on my slash piles when I wasn't around used his son's car to do just that and I didn't recognize it when I came home, so I went back there with the shotgun only to find that it wasn't a trespasser.

I like a shotgun because it is less likely that buckshot will make it thru the forest between my land and the neighbors should I need to deal with a threat. Also, if I go out to investigate movement outside, it is more likely I may encounter a wild/feral animal than a human - we have bears and cougars and coyotes and feral dogs, but very little crime.

Granted, it is a niche firearm, but I find it very useful. As useful a SBS. Not sure why a person would declare a Shockwave with a brace as "useless" but then say a SBS with a stock isn't. IMO they are roughly equivalent, and the Shockwave is a lot less expensive, and no NFA hassle.

YMMV.

 

[OldTengu]

Everyone has their own opinion on any given firearm as to what use it is.

For quite a while I thought they were a gimmick, then, at a time when I was wanting to upgrade from the Mossberg 500 I had to a KSG or a DP-12 (both bullpups), someone here had a Shockwave Marinecote with a brace on it.

It occurred to me, that the length was the same or shorter than the bullpups, a lot less expensive, a lot lighter, slimmer and easier to partially conceal alongside my body when walking around my neighborhood/property (20 forested acres on a mountain that is extra rural).

Also, it would be a better "truck gun".

As for how it shoots, it is no harder to shoot than a pistol grip only shotgun except that it is lighter and therefore has more recoil.

With a laser/light and buckshot, it is useful for me for home/property defense. If I need to go to the back acreage or the shop to see if someone/something is messing around there when they shouldn't be, it is handier to grab and throw in the truck. If it is a neighbor or I run into a neighbor, then it is easier to just hold it along the off side of my body and at least partially conceal it - that actually happened once; a neighbor I had asked to keep an eye on my slash piles when I wasn't around used his son's car to do just that and I didn't recognize it when I came home, so I went back there with the shotgun only to find that it wasn't a trespasser.

I like a shotgun because it is less likely that buckshot will make it thru the forest between my land and the neighbors should I need to deal with a threat. Also, if I go out to investigate movement outside, it is more likely I may encounter a wild/feral animal than a human - we have bears and cougars and coyotes and feral dogs, but very little crime.

Granted, it is a niche firearm, but I find it very useful. As useful a SBS. Not sure why a person would declare a Shockwave with a brace as "useless" but then say a SBS with a stock isn't. IMO they are roughly equivalent, and the Shockwave is a lot less expensive, and no NFA hassle.

YMMV.

I feel like the nightstick will be as useful or more than my pistol grip 870 in the woods. Not to mention the truck, as @The Heretic mentioned.

 

[Kruel J]

I think it depends on dealer.

My Mossberg Shockwave is registered as a Pistol.

Then your dealer broke the law.

 

[The Heretic]

At ~30", my pistol braced Shockwave is about the same length as some bullpup shotguns with 18" barrels. This is my home defense shotgun.

At 26", my other pistol gripped Shockwave is 4" shorter, not as easy to shoot, but with a laser and light, it doesn't need to be shouldered or brought up to eye level to be accurate enough at 10-20 yards that it will be almost as effective as a shouldered shotgun. This is my "truck gun" and/or it may go into my "daily driver" (especially if I ever find myself working in Portland proper again).

 

[bikewirks]

It might have something to do with it being a pump-action requiring two hands to fully operate, while the semi-auto TAC-13 is (so I've read at several places) considered a pistol by WA state. I'm waiting for the supply chains to open up again so @LuckySG can get me the hook-up on one of them!


Yes... you will be mine... come to Butthead. View attachment 697151

Got a TAC-13 as soon as it came out! Easy to use and devastating on the business end! Definitely worth the price.

 

[223to45]

Then your dealer broke the law.

Very well could have, but they based it on WA state definition