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There's a reason about <1% of the citizenry raises their hand to serve, about <10% of the portion of those who do serve are in MOS's that are considered at "the tip of the spear".
Proportionally speaking, PTSD will likely be greater among those in that concert crowd because they were suddenly thrust into a deadly event w/o any training, or mental/physical preparation, let alone any expectation of a violent eruption of that nature.
It can be hard enough to cope and keep things in perspective WITH the training, preparation, and having the expectation of engaging in an armed conflict.
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I agree with this. Add in their helplessness in being unable to fight back.
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I didn't do anything that was on TV, but here are my thoughts anyway.
One year or more on the Korean DMZ, a year or more in a combat theatre, some time in combat arms or airborne units, a 20 year or more career in the military, in law or in the FD can desensitize a person...
Exemplification:
A fire chief I know very well has picked up a lot of body parts along HWY 97; elderly, mid-age, kids, and newborns....
A police Captain I also know very well with 30 years has seen an abundance of cadavers with all types of mortal wounds....
This being post 9/11, post Beruit, post USS Cole, etc...some people expected this type of horror to happen.
The innocent civilians at the concert?
They will never forget, but the next time may not affect them as much as this awful time.
One year or more on the Korean DMZ, a year or more in a combat theatre, some time in combat arms or airborne units, a 20 year or more career in the military, in law or in the FD can desensitize a person...
Exemplification:
A fire chief I know very well has picked up a lot of body parts along HWY 97; elderly, mid-age, kids, and newborns....
A police Captain I also know very well with 30 years has seen an abundance of cadavers with all types of mortal wounds....
This being post 9/11, post Beruit, post USS Cole, etc...some people expected this type of horror to happen.
The innocent civilians at the concert?
They will never forget, but the next time may not affect them as much as this awful time.
We used to get psych checks after strenuous missions.......ours were usually short in and out affairs.....the thing that always has struck me is the randomness of life in general. From inception to ultimate death is totally random......we have little control. It does not help to worry or cower in some safe corner, true to my genetic fatalistic Protestant Celtic background, when your time is up....you are done. That said, I avoid large crowds and gatherings. Haven't been comfortable in them since working security at the Lake Placid Olympics.
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Combat is the most intimate experience you can have with another person.
I used the word intimate for many reasons:
1) Combat is intensely personal it can affect many people differently...
Also the same person can be affected different ways at different times as well.
2) Combat is "intimate" because you are giving the other person your full and undivided attention... Generally speaking there is no holding back.
3) it is true that you are giving death to your enemy ... but in turn you are giving life to yourself and your squad mates...
4) You are taking away everything from the enemy , all that he has and ever will have or be.
I am honored to have been awarded the Combat Infantryman's Badge ( plus a few other combat awards ) but I do not wish that honor on anyone...Its a paradox.
Combat has shaped my outlook on life and how I go about my daily business ...There are aspects of combat that I am "glad" to have ... but the cost of earning was high.
As for Sunday's shooting ... I am still processing the horrific event.
Edit to add:
The above were comments on the "active" parts of combat ... not the majority of boring , dull times with little to no food and sleep in a far away and lonely place.
Andy
I used the word intimate for many reasons:
1) Combat is intensely personal it can affect many people differently...
Also the same person can be affected different ways at different times as well.
2) Combat is "intimate" because you are giving the other person your full and undivided attention... Generally speaking there is no holding back.
3) it is true that you are giving death to your enemy ... but in turn you are giving life to yourself and your squad mates...
4) You are taking away everything from the enemy , all that he has and ever will have or be.
I am honored to have been awarded the Combat Infantryman's Badge ( plus a few other combat awards ) but I do not wish that honor on anyone...Its a paradox.
Combat has shaped my outlook on life and how I go about my daily business ...There are aspects of combat that I am "glad" to have ... but the cost of earning was high.
As for Sunday's shooting ... I am still processing the horrific event.
Edit to add:
The above were comments on the "active" parts of combat ... not the majority of boring , dull times with little to no food and sleep in a far away and lonely place.
Andy
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At times I think about the mothers of enemy "soldiers" who will never see their (very) young sons, nor possibly ever know where their bodies (and misc. parts) were buried, and I get a bit down about it... BUT, better them than my mom enduring the same thing....
paradox.
paradox.
The type of work I did was most offen in defense of a survivor or ourselves in pursuit of a survivor. Not the same as a battalions going up against each other. It must be a very different experiance. I have been supported by air cover but never artillery, another random experiance. It is easy to justify the protection of an individual or group. It is maby more personal? Another paradox.
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I was not in combat when I was in the Army. I have had my experience in life prior to the Army and even afterward. Andy, you have stated it very well! I also thought the same way when in the military as you have Stomper. I have seen first hand the evil in people's hearts and what they are capable of doing. I have also witnessed a friend die in a motorcycle accident. And then there is my current profession, tow truck driver. We just had a 17 year old young man lose his life yesterday. Out of respect for his family I will not go into details.
Here is the article
Port Orchard teen killed in South Kitsap crash identified
And I can say that it effects you differently each time and for those that are a part of the Vegas tragedy... welcome to the club that you never want to be a part of.
Here is the article
Port Orchard teen killed in South Kitsap crash identified
And I can say that it effects you differently each time and for those that are a part of the Vegas tragedy... welcome to the club that you never want to be a part of.
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Well as I said it is intensely personal ... I wouldn't call it the greatest adrenaline rush in life.
To me "greatest" equals something good or enjoyable.
While I was "good" in combat it was far from enjoyable to me....If that makes sense.
Another paradox ...being at my best when the world around me is at its worst...
Again it is just my opinion and no disrespect to you or your thoughts on the matter.
Andy
Edit to add:
I hear you and understand about coming back to the merry-go-round of regular life
To me "greatest" equals something good or enjoyable.
While I was "good" in combat it was far from enjoyable to me....If that makes sense.
Another paradox ...being at my best when the world around me is at its worst...
Again it is just my opinion and no disrespect to you or your thoughts on the matter.
Andy
Edit to add:
I hear you and understand about coming back to the merry-go-round of regular life
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We all cope differently. My way has always been humor and I realize sometimes its not appreciated. An example would be me learning to pace chest compressions during CPR to the beat of "another one bites the dust".
I think the term Paradox is perfect. Most of my combat pilots were very high and celebratory after a successful mission.........(maby because they survived?) we were after a successful rescue. It is always a good feeling to accomplish a task that you have trained hard to learn that worked as it was supposed to. don't know how they felt later in life. Most of us become more reflective with age.
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Not trying to diminish the horror of what happened, however, words matter. Combat, is generally recognized as "fighting" between armed forces. Where is the "fight" in getting "shot at"? Anyone can get shot or shot at. Reminds me of stories I've heard of people claiming to have "seen combat" because the base they were at was shelled or had someone shooting a few rounds into/over the wire/wall/berm.
Taking the fight to the enemy, to close with and to destroy, to shoot someone, however, is something entirely different.
It is not the same as getting shot at. I agree with Andy, it is much more "intimate."
Taking the fight to the enemy, to close with and to destroy, to shoot someone, however, is something entirely different.
It is not the same as getting shot at. I agree with Andy, it is much more "intimate."
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Exactly what most of my experience has been. I have only one experience with someone that was shooting directly at me. Most of my other experience comes from being in the area. From walking down the street to being at a party and having someone state ,"don't worry it's not loaded."
You guys are pikers.....I had a girlfriend "part my hair" at very close range (like 30") with my Colt Buntline new Frontier 22 Magnum in 1972. Long before I was in combat. It required a fresh buzz haircut to avoid too many questions.........don't even remember what she was upset about. Some idiot Californian shot at us during elk season in Northern Idaho in the late 60's....that time we just returned suppressing fire.
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To any and all who have read my comments here in this thread...
It was not my intent to come off sound like I am a "authority" on combat , or sound like some dumbazz action movie star.
Also I do not want to give the impression of "War is Hell and my Hell was worse than yours" or ideas to that effect.
Upon re-reading my comments I feel that I might have come across that way.
One of the dangers of speaking about combat ( for me anyway ) is that it is a experience that is without comparison.
Sure one can come close with stories of accidents , medical emergencies , or those from Law Enforcement and First Responders....And believe me I am not trying to take away anything from them.
They are all worthy of merit and worth hearing.
But the sights , smells , sounds and memories of combat , not to forget to mention that my thoughts on these have changed over time , really make expressing how I feel about combat difficult.
Trying to explain to someone , something , that is totally outside of their realm of experience is also problematic .
In addition I am always worried about sounding like some sad old cliche....
So again I apologize for any misunderstanding I may have cause with what I have posted.
Edit to add:
The above was not written in response to any reply to my comments...Just my thoughts on what I originally wrote...
Andy
It was not my intent to come off sound like I am a "authority" on combat , or sound like some dumbazz action movie star.
Also I do not want to give the impression of "War is Hell and my Hell was worse than yours" or ideas to that effect.
Upon re-reading my comments I feel that I might have come across that way.
One of the dangers of speaking about combat ( for me anyway ) is that it is a experience that is without comparison.
Sure one can come close with stories of accidents , medical emergencies , or those from Law Enforcement and First Responders....And believe me I am not trying to take away anything from them.
They are all worthy of merit and worth hearing.
But the sights , smells , sounds and memories of combat , not to forget to mention that my thoughts on these have changed over time , really make expressing how I feel about combat difficult.
Trying to explain to someone , something , that is totally outside of their realm of experience is also problematic .
In addition I am always worried about sounding like some sad old cliche....
So again I apologize for any misunderstanding I may have cause with what I have posted.
Edit to add:
The above was not written in response to any reply to my comments...Just my thoughts on what I originally wrote...
Andy
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My CPR instructor prefers the BeeGee's "Stayin' Alive", no joke, it's the perfect pace for compression-only CPR.
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To those of us who never served, it's hard to understand the feelings/emotions that come with the experience of combat. I know a number of folks that have, including my father. Even today, 40+ years later, there are things he can't or won't talk about. It affected him, deeply. But hearing stories from those of you who have served help shed just a little light on the kinds of ways those experiences can impact folks - and even two folks who experienced the same event can have very different takeaways from it.
If anything, your posts simply point out what I've also heard from other combat vets - it's a deeply personal event, and likely one that very few others can ever understand.
It's too bad more folks don't recognize that the sacrifice made by our vets often is not visible with funerals or scars or other injuries, but reside deeply in each individual. And while we'll never truly understand, it is helpful to folks like me to hear it, so I can at least getter a better feel for the cost that was really paid.
As always, my thanks to those who served.
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