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Carrying and Handgun Proficiency

Discussion in 'Defensive Carry & Self Defense' started by RicInOR, May 12, 2016.

  1. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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  2. druiseeker

    druiseeker Salem Member 2015 Volunteer

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    While I'm not a fan of efforts to making something like this a requirement for a CHL, I do think its every shooters responsibility to evaluate themselves as to whether they are "safe" to carry a firearm in public before doing so. I've encountered too many people who go to the store, buy a pistol, holster, ammo, get a CHL and NEVER go shoot their new firearm. I met one guy who didn't even know if his worked...

    There are a lot of useful training courses here in the Northwest. Whenever friends or relatives (who aren't shooters themselves) talk about getting or carrying a firearm, I stress attending some local training courses. At the very least, I'll offer to take them shooting to cover basic firearm safety and operation of their firearm.
     
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  3. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    Always good to practice.
    And it always is good to practice with a "real world" out look and mind set if you are at a range that allows you to do so.
    If nothing else just to remind you that life and emergencies happen at their schedule not yours ...
    Andy
     
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  4. edslhead

    edslhead Vanc Gold Supporter Gold Supporter Silver Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I'm a great shot. i always hit something:p
     
  5. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    Yeah , I shoot great one shot groups ... LOL
     
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  6. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I've done a test very similar to this in two defensive handgun courses at OFA. Each time I kept all rounds in the target area. The only thing I haven't done yet is do it under the same time constraints - that's actually done in the 3rd class, which I have yet to take. Probably not a bad idea to get some training and go through something like this, though I would stop short of making it a mandatory requirement.
     
  7. BDA.45

    BDA.45 oregon Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    I've shot this exact test multiple times with concealment and passed every 1. It's moderate. Kinda similar to the IDPA classifier. The time constraints push you for sure. After you shoot this shoot the federal air marshal qualifications. That'll REALLY roost your tooter......
     
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  8. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    I don't know if I could do this. My mind would constantly be on where my brass was landing and if I was going to find all of it.

    I'm sure shooting wouldn't be much of an issue. That brass though. 60x.03 = $1.80 in brass.
     
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  9. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    exercises like this one are what I do when I practice on my own when I shoot out on public lands. It really makes a difference over time ("muscle memory") in doing what I call a cold shoot where the first draw of the day is 2 hits to COM from a concealed holster, especially if its been a while since you last went shooting. Before I used to train with my pistol (instead of just "target shooting") I could never do that cold.... I realised if I couldn’t do that cold then I cant for real under stress.

    the web is full of tests like this one anyone can print the instructions, it makes the day way more fun and entertaining than just plinking at cans and saves on ammo too its a win situation. I've randomly printed and used a variety of drills from pistol-training.com, some IDP, some a friend showed me from a swat team course, and some dot drills to warm up with. What I have been wondering lately is if I can piece together a beginner to advanced list of drills so I can better gauge my ability and identify drills I should work more on....

    In short, I do believe proficiency is of paramount importance especially if you want to exercise your right outside your home. IMO everyone should take at least one professional class and then practice like above at least once or twice a year at a minimum. Just my opinion though.
     
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  10. bbbass

    bbbass La Grande Well-Known Member

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    Define "professional". I wouldn't spend $300-$1200 for classes and for sure wouldn't trust anybody I love to some of those jerks with lots of opinions/advice but no real experience/expertise!
     
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  11. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Define "experience/expertise".....

    Professional: someone who does something for a living.
    Yeah I know that can be wide open, you have to do your research but I wouldn’t go so far as to say someone teaching a class not having any experience. They research their curriculum every day, I would venture to say any class is better than no class. There are many classes less than $300 by the way, you don’t have any way to gauge your skills otherwise and a class can be evidence you acted within an appropriate manner if you ever wind up in such a predicament, you will respond in the manner you have been trained, be it tin cans in the woods or a professional class.
     
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  12. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    @BDA.45 I would not be surprised if the classifier wasn't taken from the FBI test.

    @Dyjital - the squad I was on for my last qualifier had one guy who laid out a tarp. Returned marked brass to the owner.



    All - I suggest Steel Challenge / Speed Steel for those of you wanting to try a challenge. Most times you can use your carry rig, and granted it is one shot / target, but once that buzzer goes.... Where else can you get 30-40 draws on the clock, under pressure?


    All - there is NO CHANCE I would want some shooting requirement as a part of a CHP.
    However, as a responsible citizen you need to be proficient with your weapons.
     
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  13. bbbass

    bbbass La Grande Well-Known Member

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    I think there's a fair bit of miscommunication here... I never said nor meant to imply that all people teaching class have no experience. However, if one does not realize that a number of people have hung out a shingle just because they can, that is a problem. Further, research is nowhere near enough. Further further imo any class is not better than no class but can be detrimental to the well being of those that are led to rely on unproven tactics or poor techniques. And just because someone is doing something for a living doesn't mean they are any good at it. Witness bad contractors, shoddy unknowledgeable home inspectors, etc etc. So yes, research is key.

    Imo experienced is someone who has worked as a bodyguard, Swat member, or such. Standard mil training isn't enough, nor is Standard LEO training (I know this because my stepdaughter is an officer).

    Not disagreeing that training is absolutely essential. Too many people with CHL that either don't shoot or only target shoot. I just want people to be careful in choosing a trainer. Believe me, you haven't seen what I have.
     
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  14. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    sorry about any miscommunication, I hear what your saying and agree...

    there doesn’t seem to be any official standard in defensive shooting classes, so where does one begin? I think I would rather have somebody who knows absolutely nothing about shooting take any class than none, but I do get the point you made about that. Just like finding a really good contractor, I don’t think there is an easy answer.
     
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  15. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    You all have hit on something close to my heart here, training, and the lack of training that seems so prevalent today. Each of you has brought up very valid and important points. Choosing a trainer and a curriculum to get you started is very important, as well constant up dated training to keep you sharp and ready. Trust me on this one, After 20 years of active duty and near daily drill with many weapons platforms, you do loose skills and speed with a laps of practice and time. I have been to 4 different training centers since I retired and I am amazed at how much I am learning and growing back my skills, as well as the different ways I needed to be thinking about things that I was not used to. No training is perfect, just as none of us are, being able to find your areas that you are strong as well as your week areas is the real key, for that, I have no recommendation, as each of us is different. What I find helps me "SEE" where I am is to snap draw and fire a 5 shot string on target! If I can do that every time even with my heart rate up, i'm good to go. I do think it is the responsible thing to do as a permit holder, but I do not think it should be mandated!
     
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  16. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    To add to the standards question, I don't think there ever could be a set of standards or requirements. Age, physical limits, exct. can all affect performance standards. I think each person needs to take a few classes, find out as much as you can, try out as many different situations as you can safely, practice as much as you an afford with ammo as close to what you carry, and make it a part of the life of carry! You don't go out and buy a hot Italian exotic car only to fill the tank with regular cheep stuff, you don't take the Missus to a fancy restaurant and order a "Merican Cheese Burger, spend some serious time, effort and hard earned coin on practice and any training you can, your life may depend on it!
     
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  17. bbbass

    bbbass La Grande Well-Known Member

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    IMO, drills like the FBI test and Bill Wilson's 5x5 drill http://www.wideopenspaces.com/shooting-drill-bill-wilsons-5x5-drill/ are good indicators of the "technical" skills needed for self defense shooting. Tactical skills are also important and these are something taught in many advanced classes... shooting on the move, shooting while seated, shooting from behind cover, shooting from inside a vehicle, shooting over a car roof, from behind car door, over the hood, under a car, shooting while laying in a sleeping bag, shooting inside a grocery store, shooting moving targets, shooting at disappearing targets, shooting in low light or with a flashlight, determining and shooting in tactical order, situational awareness, ethics of self defense with a firearm.

    Whatever situation we can think of, we need to simulate and train. The learning (and fun) never stops!!!

    P.S. We learn best by doing, not by watching, reading, or thinking about things.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
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  18. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    I agree 100%!!!
     
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  19. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I shoot IDPA - you get about 6 scenarios to try to solve.

    There are limitations - like you see how the other guys did it
    and many stages are like the Arthur Murray - put left foot here, right there.

    Something to consider.
     
  20. bbbass

    bbbass La Grande Well-Known Member

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    Ha ha, me too. Long time USPSA and IDPA shooter and club RO/SO. Now I shoot IDPA only.

    Not sure about the Arthur Murray comment. o_O And you mentioned seeing how the other shooters go thru the scenario... I would encourage newcomers and old timers to adopt a mindset of being there to learn new skills and tactics, and to keep existing skills at a high level rather than focusing too much on the competition aspects; the match is the vehicle, not the ride.

    @all: Yes, it doesn't translate perfectly to real life, however, it is indeed better than no training. IMO it is a great way to teach... The stage is set, the theory is explained, you get to see several examples of it being done, then you try it yourself!

    @all: But definitely some stages are honing or practicing basic self defense shooting skills. Others are more scenario based, for instance a simulation of thugs having broken down your front door, etc. So for $40/yr plus the cost of the match, $15 at most shoots, and 60-90rds, one gets a day of training, comradery, and gentlemanly competition. Both types of stages are needed if we are to maintain our skills.

    @All - It is worth noting that the number of scenarios is up to the local match organizers. Some matches are 4 stages, others are 8. I'm not remembering a max round count under the rules, but here we try to keep ours under 100. The small set of skills I listed earlier (although incomplete) is a good example of what one can learn inexpensively and while having fun at IDPA matches.

    :D
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
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