National ATF is going after FRT

[nehalemguy]

If you watch one of the video's of people using these things its easy to see why the feds went after them. Does not matter that they are OK per the letter of the law. They work well enough that they had to stop them. Again with the fed boys laws and rules mean what they say they mean.

Actually, yes, it matters a great deal. ATF has already gone down this avenue with bump stocks and was smacked down by the courts for doing so. The crux of the issue to the courts is that the ATF – effectively part of the executive branch of government – enforces laws rather than makes them, with that authority reserved for the people acting through their elected representatives in Congress. If Congress wishes to enact legislation that outlaws FRT's they can do that, but the ATF cannot arbitrarily do so on their own.

-E-

 

[308]

Pretty soon those with the ability rapid fire their bolt gun will be accused of owning a machinG gun

 

[PiratePast40]

Actually, yes, it matters a great deal. ATF has already gone down this avenue with bump stocks and was smacked down by the courts for doing so. The crux of the issue to the courts is that the ATF – effectively part of the executive branch of government – enforces laws rather than makes them, with that authority reserved for the people acting through their elected representatives in Congress. If Congress wishes to enact legislation that outlaws FRT's they can do that, but the ATF cannot arbitrarily do so on their own.

-E-

Federal agencies have always been empowered by congress to make and enforce regulations. The CFR is composed of regulations under color of law that are enforceable. Don't have to like it, but that's the reality of it.

 

[Flopsweat]

I like this response.

He brings up a really good point that in March of this year, the Sixth Circuit Court ruled that bump stocks are not machine guns.

"With or without a bump stock, a semiautomatic firearm is capable of firing only a single shot for each pull of the trigger and is unable to fire again until the trigger is released, and the hammer of the firearm is reset."

Sixth Circuit Court Rules Bump Stocks Are Not Machine Guns

This victory in the Sixth Circuit Court is the first victory that gun rights advocates have in defending bump stocks.

www.ammoland.com

This is just more of the same, as is the wrist brace issue.

 

[gryghin]

If you watch one of the video's of people using these things its easy to see why the feds went after them. Does not matter that they are OK per the letter of the law. They work well enough that they had to stop them. Again with the fed boys laws and rules mean what they say they mean.

Soon the whole Miculek clan will be dubbed "machine gun" and "illegal" because obviously they are "too" fast.

 

[Alexx1401]

Actually, yes, it matters a great deal. ATF has already gone down this avenue with bump stocks and was smacked down by the courts for doing so. The crux of the issue to the courts is that the ATF – effectively part of the executive branch of government – enforces laws rather than makes them, with that authority reserved for the people acting through their elected representatives in Congress. If Congress wishes to enact legislation that outlaws FRT's they can do that, but the ATF cannot arbitrarily do so on their own.

-E-

So where can we still buy Bumpstocks? Did not know the feds gave up on that.
For anyone who does not believe the feds can do anything they want? Great, if that makes you "feel better" you can believe anything you wish.
In the real world the feds have done this many times. Anyone who had been around for a while will remember a couple shotguns that were sold for a while. One day feds just said this is now an NFA weapon. Those who owned one could register it or if they "feel" the feds could not do that? They could thumb their nose at them and keep it. Adults get to make adult choices but, they also have to be ready to accept the adult consequences. Yes anyone who wishes is welcome to take them to court to fight it out. In the meantime anyone who "feels" the feds can do nothing, poke the bear. I don't feel like making myself a test case but, others are welcome to do so. The first black robe they end up in front of will not care how they "feel about it" sadly.

 

[gryghin]

It will be fun to see how this shakes out. The feds "may" just drop it. They may decide to fight it as they have basically unlimited funds to go to court. They can also find a black robe or two to just rubber stamp what they say. Then it will come down to how much money and time the manufacturer feels like sinking into this. Sad state of affairs this has become.

We've all seen evidence that defunding the police can be accomplished and the results of this.

Maybe this banner should be taken up into the federal ranks and defund those alphabet groups as well?

 

[sobo]

So where can we still buy Bumpstocks? Did not know the feds gave up on that.

If you live in Idaho, you still can.
Not sure about Oregon.
They are now illegal to possess in Washington (ESSB 5992).

 

[Alexx1401]

We've all seen evidence that defunding the police can be accomplished and the results of this.

Maybe this banner should be taken up into the federal ranks and defund those alphabet groups as well?

We would ALL love that! Of course we all know its never going to happen sadly. The useful idiots marching for no Cops are going to end up with more federal cops if they win. The federal cops of course will not be accountable to the local law makers. The useful idiots who get what they asked for will scream because they got what they begged for. Did you see the Lawmaker calling the cop who shot the unarmed protester a hero? How often to law makers of that side call a cop who shoots someone who is not armed a hero? They did this on video. Yet next time some local cop is attacked and shoots the scum? If the scum is not "armed" this same law maker will call that cop a murderer not a hero.

 

[Alexx1401]

If you live in Idaho, you still can.
Not sure about Oregon.
They are now illegal to possess in Washington (ESSB 5992).

This is exactly what I am talking about. Many "feel" the feds can not just "make up law". Yet here it is. Feds have unlimited funds to fight stuff like this. Now those fighting may well win. If they do some states will of course step in. In the meanwhile I, if I lived in a state that had not yet banned them, would not be wanting to be a test case because I "feel" I have the right. Those shockwave shotguns are a great example of this. AG would not allow stores to sell them as a long gun, made them treat them as a hand gun. Same AG has not yet said they are a hand gun legally. So while it would be great to be able to carry one loaded in a vehicle I am not willing to be a test case here. I "feel" like I should be able to but, I know better.

 

[sobo]

This is exactly what I am talking about. Many "feel" the feds can not just "make up law". Yet here it is. Feds have unlimited funds to fight stuff like this.

In the case of the WA (state) bumpstock ban, it was not the Feds at all that "made up law."
It was 31 asshats in the state senate (vs 18 Constitutionalists) and 56 assclowns in the state house (vs 41 Constitutionalists) that passed ESSB 5992.
It was a foregone conclusion that Asswipe Inslee would sign it, which he of course did.
As we know by the ATF's own definition of a machinegun, the bumpstock fails that test.
But the assclowns in Olympia can't seem to figure this out...

 

[Alexx1401]

In the case of the WA (state) bumpstock ban, it was not the Feds at all that "made up law."
It was 31 asshats in the state senate (vs 18 Constitutionalists) and 56 assclowns in the state house (vs 41 Constitutionalists) that passed ESSB 5992.
It was a foregone conclusion that Asswipe Inslee would sign it, which he of course did.
As we know by the ATF's own definition of a machinegun, the bumpstock fails that test.
But the assclowns in Olympia can't seem to figure this out...

View attachment 1011710

Yep I know for us its the state in the way but, what I am trying to convey here is all my life I have heard shooters claiming they "feel" some new law or rule does not past muster, so it can't be. I keep trying to tell them laws, rules, mean only what someone in charge tells you they mean. Is anyone still selling bumpstocks on line to any state at this point? Anyone still own one of those shotguns the feds just made an NFA item after they sold it to them as not being NFA? Did the congress ever pass a law backing this up?
I LOVE my pistol Braces. The feds have made it clear they do not like them. Suspect one day they will just say they are no more. Not by passing a law, rather they will just say so. I will have a choice then. Ignore the new "rule" because I "feel" they can't do this, or get rid of them. I will just get rid of mine. Emotions always get heavily involved in this stuff. I don't try to tell anyone else what choice to make. Only that they do have to be willing to live with the consequences of the choices they make. How they "feel" about any new rule or law really will mean zero if they end up in front of a black robe who says differently.
I do not "feel" our wanabe king governor had any rights to shut down business's on his word. He chose to pick winners and losers. I am sure it had a lot to do with who was buttering his bread. Now if I owned a small business and was told by king jay to shut it down? Whether I "felt" he was right or wrong would mean nothing. All that would matter is would I be willing to see if I could hire more lawyers than our AG.

 

[sobo]

Of course, with bumpstocks, triggers, and braces, there's always...

 

[Alexx1401]

Of course, with bumpstocks, triggers, and braces, there's always...

View attachment 1011743

Damn waterways are going to be clogged with guns

 

[sobo]

Damn waterways are going to be clogged with guns

There's no tellin' what old stuff of mine someone would pull up if they dragged the Columbia behind McNary Dam...

 

[nehalemguy]

Federal agencies have always been empowered by congress to make and enforce regulations. The CFR is composed of regulations under color of law that are enforceable. Don't have to like it, but that's the reality of it.

True but that misses the point. Those regulations are set within the framework of what the law spells out which is why after 80+ years you see ATF still only collecting $200 for a tax stamp and not $2000. NFA 1934 spells out that it will be $200 so the ATF is bound to only collect that amount for a stamp. In the same vein, NFA 1934 also defines what makes a machine gun.


Justice Scalia once wrote "we have never held that the Government's reading of a criminal statute is entitled to any deference". ATF in both the bump stock saga and now with FRT's is interpreting a criminal statute. The problem is that the definition of what a machine gun is was spelled out by Congress, not the ATF. The 6th Circuit Court of Appeals held that "a bump stock does not fall within the statutory definition of a machine gun" because regardless of how fast it fires, it's still not a single pull of the trigger.

My suspicion is that this latest order will wind it's way through the courts and eventually meet the same fate as the bump stock ban.

-E-

 

[PiratePast40]

^^^^ Thank you for the history and legal explanation. It helps to understand when you have more specific background information.

 

[Member 34319]

Rare Breed set up their company through their lawyers offices in Florida. They have current ATF advisers, the ones the actual ATF uses, stating in writing that this is not a machine gun nor a device that turns a gun into one. It is a semi automatic trigger. The letter that RBs lawyers sent in response to the ATFs cease and desist is absolutely priceless. RB set this whole thing up, in my opinion, with this fight in mind. They wantEd to fight and they are going to fight.

If you want one, they are in stock and shipping.

FRT - 15

FRT - 15 Customized Firearm Trigger

www.rarebreedtriggers.com

 

[Alexx1401]

Rare Breed set up their company through their lawyers offices in Florida. They have current ATF advisers, the ones the actual ATF uses, stating in writing that this is not a machine gun nor a device that turns a gun into one. It is a semi automatic trigger. The letter that RBs lawyers sent in response to the ATFs cease and desist is absolutely priceless. RB set this whole thing up, in my opinion, with this fight in mind. They wantEd to fight and they are going to fight.

If you want one, they are in stock and shipping.

FRT - 15

FRT - 15 Customized Firearm Trigger

www.rarebreedtriggers.com

Do they accept Bitcoin

 

[RVTECH]

If you watch one of the video's of people using these things its easy to see why the feds went after them. Does not matter that they are OK per the letter of the law. They work well enough that they had to stop them.

I have watched a couple videos on it and yes, they do work very well. While I understand 'technically' the trigger does in fact have to be pulled each time I watched very closely and it appeared as though the recoil was in fact causing a 'forced' pull of the trigger as long as one maintained pressure on it.

Interestingly I found another video and it explained this and the narrator said that RBT had essentially designed a 'bump trigger' so It's easy to see why the ATF is going after them. I copied the vid at the time where this is explained.