At what point does a thought — or a plan — become a crime?

[RicInOR]

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/28/724347494/this-teen-planned-a-school-shooting-but-did-he-break-the-law

Should someone be allowed to think, "I want to shoot up my old school"?

Or write it down in a journal?

Or do that, and then buy a gun?

In other words, did Sawyer even break the law?

Jared Carter, an assistant professor at Vermont Law School, says no — at least not according to the law as it was written when Sawyer was arrested.

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[Member 34319]

Yep. He does. We should arrest him now before he does.

 

[zenbreath]

A thought is a crime when all 12 members of the jury say it is.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

When you put your thoughts or plans into action is when it may be a crime...otherwise its just intellectual masturbation.

To make a crime out of someone's thoughts or writings is wrong...
Please note that I am not saying to not question or have concerns over what someone writes or thinks.
I am saying that the mere thought or writing may not be a crime or even intent of the same....

And Yeah I know lots of "may" in this post...but if we starting locking folks up for what the may do...then just where do we stop...?

Everyone has the potential for committing a crime or harm to others...
To read about "Thought Crime" in the novel 1984 , is one thing , to actually have to live the novel is something else entirely.
Andy

 

[Stomper]

Although a slippery slope, "constructive intent" is definitely a factor weighing in here.



Let me throw this out there...

If one of your neighbors drives through your entire neighborhood and past your house while holding up a sign saying "I'm going to shoot you", then walks out of their house holding a gun but doesn't step off their property or point it at anyone... have they committed a crime?

Were they holding the sign up specifically for you, or anyone else? Is it freedom of speech to hold up a sign that says anything you want? Is it within their 2A rights to "safely" bear arms on their own property?

Sounds absurd, but some people have too much time on their hands and will do exactly the above kind of crap for whatever reason(s).

Determining "intent" in this type of scenario is where we need to tread lightly.... but tread we must.

 

[Oregonhunter5]

Although a slippery slope, "constructive intent" is definitely a factor weighing in here.



Let me throw this out there...

If one of your neighbors drives through your entire neighborhood and past your house while holding up a sign saying "I'm going to shoot you", then walks out of their house holding a gun but doesn't step off their property or point it at anyone... have they committed a crime?

Were they holding the sign up specifically for you, or anyone else? Is it freedom of speech to hold up a sign that says anything you want? Is it within their 2A rights to "safely" bear arms on their own property?

Sounds absurd, but some people have too much time on their hands and will do exactly the above kind of crap for whatever reason(s).

Determining "intent" in this type of scenario is where we need to tread lightly.... but tread we must.

That's the smartest thing you ever said in here.
You finally earned a like from me. Haha

 

[Stomper]

That's the smartest thing you ever said in here.
You finally earned a like from me. Haha

Hot DAM!! Now I can FINALLY lay down and die in eternal peace!

 

[Alexx1401]

Have to agree with Stomper here. When you start telling others that is not "thought". Thought is something that as fare as I know no one can yet tell. You start writing down and telling others you want to or intend to? This tells me we have someone who is not safe to allow to roam free.

 

[Mikej]

That's the smartest thing you ever said in here.
You finally earned a like from me. Haha

@Stomper is not only here to entertain us. He can also "WOW" with his intellectual prowess. However his word usage in THIS particular case is a tad off. "DAM! vs DAMN!"

 

[RicInOR]

We all accept that some of this is normal acceptable behaviour.
Otherwise we would not have books, or movies about assassinating the president;
Planning to kill the president is a crime.

Many times we also have to include the ability to carry out the action. Can the person do what they have threatened.

And, English, with 25 million words, has many meanings for each one.
Have you ever beaten your wife ?
- Yes, at cards or tennis ...

The protection on speech has been limited by congress and the courts. There are Fighting words. There are Creating a Riot (panic) words. Fraud.

What is acceptable changes. In 1990, 2000, suggesting that blacks have a separate graduation would have been akin to blasphemy. Now, it is all the rage.


So, I don't know where the line is, or might be.

 

[Alexx1401]

We all accept that some of this is normal acceptable behaviour.
Otherwise we would not have books, or movies about assassinating the president;
Planning to kill the president is a crime.

Many times we also have to include the ability to carry out the action. Can the person do what they have threatened.

And, English, with 25 million words, has many meanings for each one.
Have you ever beaten your wife ?
- Yes, at cards or tennis ...

The protection on speech has been limited by congress and the courts. There are Fighting words. There are Creating a Riot (panic) words. Fraud.

What is acceptable changes. In 1990, 2000, suggesting that blacks have a separate graduation would have been akin to blasphemy. Now, it is all the rage.


So, I don't know where the line is, or might be.

Line? I can sure find one easy. Some guy who goes to joe blow school. Goes and buys a gun and starts telling others he loves reading about famous people who have shot up schools and that he is going to do the same at his school. I have zero problems with them grabbing the kid up, taking his guns, forcing him to be seen by mental health professionals.
Want another line? Guy in airport thinks its "funny" to make a "joke" about taking down a plane. If he is that stupid, to make that statement, to others at the airport? I have zero problems with him missing his flight that day while the boys who work there have a talk with him. He can write his book after and include a chapter on human stupidity.

 

[Mikej]

Line? I can sure find one easy. Some guy who goes to joe blow school. Goes and buys a gun and starts telling others he loves reading about famous people who have shot up schools and that he is going to do the same at his school. I have zero problems with them grabbing the kid up, taking his guns, forcing him to be seen by mental health professionals.
Want another line? Guy in airport thinks its "funny" to make a "joke" about taking down a plane. If he is that stupid, to make that statement, to others at the airport? I have zero problems with him missing his flight that day while the boys who work there have a talk with him. He can write his book after and include a chapter on human stupidity.

Makes me think. Some movie perhaps? You see your old buddy, at the airport. His name is "Jack"

 

[SHPD_Retired]

When you put your thoughts or plans into action is when it may be a crime...otherwise its just intellectual masturbation.

To make a crime out of someone's thoughts or writings is wrong...
Please note that I am not saying to not question or have concerns over what someone writes or thinks.
I am saying that the mere thought or writing may not be a crime or even intent of the same....

And Yeah I know lots of "may" in this post...but if we starting locking folks up for what the may do...then just where do we stop...?

Everyone has the potential for committing a crime or harm to others...
To read about "Thought Crime" in the novel 1984 , is one thing , to actually have to live the novel is something else entirely.
Andy

We are pretty much living the novel now.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

We are pretty much living the novel now.

I "liked" your post 'cause I agree..Not 'cause I like the idea of living that novel...
Sad but true ...to quote Metallica...
Andy

 

[Alexx1401]

Makes me think. Some movie perhaps? You see your old buddy, at the airport. His name is "Jack"

I got a woman tossed from Jury duty one time. Big time capitol case. During break I hear her telling another woman "I am just here to make sure he gets convicted". I tell the woman who is supposed to be our "go to for questions" I need to see you alone. She tried to blow me off. I told her OK I am going to raise my hand in court and say something. Now she is listening. They call me in with just judge and both sides. I tell them what I heard. Judge asked, do you think she could have been making a joke? I said if she was I think its about as funny as making a bomb joke at the airport. They booted her. I felt like the damn guy was most likely guilty but I did not want to end up locked up with that woman while we had to decide if I ended up on the panel.

 

[RicInOR]

It is one level to be suspicious, to get talked to. It is another more serious level when we starting taking rights.

And just because saying 'bomb' in the airport is bad now, does not mean professing a love for The Prophet would not be bad in the future.

We have had some discussion about Red Flag laws. A thought that leads to you loosing your rights is closer than we may wish to admit.

 

[eklarsen]

Although a slippery slope, "constructive intent" is definitely a factor weighing in here.



Let me throw this out there...

If one of your neighbors drives through your entire neighborhood and past your house while holding up a sign saying "I'm going to shoot you", then walks out of their house holding a gun but doesn't step off their property or point it at anyone... have they committed a crime?

Were they holding the sign up specifically for you, or anyone else? Is it freedom of speech to hold up a sign that says anything you want? Is it within their 2A rights to "safely" bear arms on their own property?

Sounds absurd, but some people have too much time on their hands and will do exactly the above kind of crap for whatever reason(s).

Determining "intent" in this type of scenario is where we need to tread lightly.... but tread we must.

No, they havent

 

[Lazyfaire]

Thought is not a crime. It becomes a crime at the point of action.

 

[cigars]

Do I really need to get started on the tin foil stuff again?

 

[TTSX]

I think about speeding all the time. But I don't do it. Never see tickets either so the thought must not be a crime