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Your description is giving me serious déjà vu vibes but I can't quite put my finger on where I have seen that behavior before . . .
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ARPC surveillance cameras.
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o
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If we distill this down to the root cause, it's people. People that have a disregard for personable accountability, safety, common sense, etc. So the question/issue then becomes, if there were no idiot club members, would there then be no need for cameras, RSO's etc.?
There is a reason I'm very selective of who I take to the club (ARPC) as I go to great lengths in not losing my membership due to the actions of my guests. Ideally, I'd like to see the club try and figure out how to do a more detailed vetting of potential new members. My thinking is to go to a "sponsor" type membership where you would need a current member in good standing to vouch for your character etc. I know of at least one other club that does this. I'm not a member so I can't comment if that makes their club better or not. I just we we could collectively find a way to prevent idiots from ruining it for those of use that shoot at private clubs/ranges and even the folks that prefer shoot in a non structured environment, such as the woods….
There is a reason I'm very selective of who I take to the club (ARPC) as I go to great lengths in not losing my membership due to the actions of my guests. Ideally, I'd like to see the club try and figure out how to do a more detailed vetting of potential new members. My thinking is to go to a "sponsor" type membership where you would need a current member in good standing to vouch for your character etc. I know of at least one other club that does this. I'm not a member so I can't comment if that makes their club better or not. I just we we could collectively find a way to prevent idiots from ruining it for those of use that shoot at private clubs/ranges and even the folks that prefer shoot in a non structured environment, such as the woods….
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Attitude has a huge impact on experience. If you come in with a chip on your shoulder or a combative demeanor, you're going to have a bad time regardless of where you're at. Private clubs set rules as they find necessary, and club RSOs have to enforce them. If you don't like the rules you can request a change from the club board or find another place to shoot. As for overbearing RSOs, if you set aside how they're saying something and focus on what they are saying, you'll (usually) find their instructions are driven by either range safety or club rules.
I can only speak personally as an average Joe who had been looking for a good place to shoot, and who had been invited by multiple members to try out ARPC. I had a bad experience several years ago, but time passes and I had no attitude or reason to bring one. In fact I was optimistic based on the more recent feedback members had given me. However, my subsequent experiences with ARPC have not been good either. And most of that comes down to the RSOs who made it very clear that guests were not welcome. The members who witnessed these events filed complaints with ARPC. I've discussed these events in the past, so I won't rehash them here.
A rep from ARPC eventually contacted me and invited me back for another chance at a better experience. So we went back a couple months later...also making sure there were different RSOs this time. I wish I could say we had a good time, but the experience and RSOs were actually worse than the previous visits.
Consequently, the members who were with me were so appalled by the behavior of multiple different RSOs, that they have cancelled their memberships. The facilities may be nice. But IMO their staff and now cameras say "stay away".
So, I will.
A rep from ARPC eventually contacted me and invited me back for another chance at a better experience. So we went back a couple months later...also making sure there were different RSOs this time. I wish I could say we had a good time, but the experience and RSOs were actually worse than the previous visits.
Consequently, the members who were with me were so appalled by the behavior of multiple different RSOs, that they have cancelled their memberships. The facilities may be nice. But IMO their staff and now cameras say "stay away".
So, I will.
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Good info thx. RSOs and management make or break a range imo. RSOs on a power trip or who intrude when they don't need to I woudl never return. Just not worth it. Sounds like they need to take a look at themselves and get some new RSOs.
I think I know. I think I know. I think I know.Your description is giving me serious déjà vu vibes but I can't quite put my finger on where I have seen that behavior before . . .
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As a former rso and instructor I get why they are doing this
Thefts , liability , insurance reasons , lawsuits etc
And frankly we all know there's a couple members that don't belong there and maybe this is just one way to confirm certain suspicions
It's all in how they choose to use them that matters
Thefts , liability , insurance reasons , lawsuits etc
And frankly we all know there's a couple members that don't belong there and maybe this is just one way to confirm certain suspicions
It's all in how they choose to use them that matters
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Being an RSO is a thankless job. I've thought about doing it at ARPC on more than a few occasions, but always end up at the same conclusion. The juice is not worth the squeeze….
Also, just as every club has a few crappy members that end up ruining it for the rest of the members, the same can be said for RSO's. It's not for everybody and yet if not properly screened, you end up with RSO's that are not a good fit and then the good RSO's get a bad rap.
In general, larger clubs with RSO's are in a tough spot. They usually need more RSO's (under staffed) and yet finding a qualified candidate(s) can often times proved difficult. So then it becomes a balancing act between keeping the RSO department adequately staffed but also making sure to the right people are selected.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Since I don't have the means to build my own personal range, I basically only have two options. Find a place to shoot in the woods or join a club. Shooting in the woods is a no go for me for various reasons. That leaves only clubs left.
I've been a member at five different gun clubs over the past several years. They all had their pros and cons and none of them checked all of my desired boxes. I had to compromise, but my 5+ years at ARPC has been positive thus far and I see no reason (currently) not to continue my membership in the future.
Also, just as every club has a few crappy members that end up ruining it for the rest of the members, the same can be said for RSO's. It's not for everybody and yet if not properly screened, you end up with RSO's that are not a good fit and then the good RSO's get a bad rap.
In general, larger clubs with RSO's are in a tough spot. They usually need more RSO's (under staffed) and yet finding a qualified candidate(s) can often times proved difficult. So then it becomes a balancing act between keeping the RSO department adequately staffed but also making sure to the right people are selected.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Since I don't have the means to build my own personal range, I basically only have two options. Find a place to shoot in the woods or join a club. Shooting in the woods is a no go for me for various reasons. That leaves only clubs left.
I've been a member at five different gun clubs over the past several years. They all had their pros and cons and none of them checked all of my desired boxes. I had to compromise, but my 5+ years at ARPC has been positive thus far and I see no reason (currently) not to continue my membership in the future.
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I could not find any threads regarding your past issues with RSOs at ARPC and I'm sincerely interested in what the issues were and what caused the interactions, if you don't mind sharing. I spoke with staff at the club in the past and one of the points that they stressed was the importance not only of the competence for RSO staff, but specifically how they interact with people. This is something they have historically taken pride in.
Thanks!
Look up the flock camera system.
The members who re invited me a few years later advise me to read the new rules ahead of time which I did. I asked them when ARPC started allowing guests again and they looked at me funny when I told them about the previous experience. They reassured me that is not how things are supposed to go at ARPC, so I agree to give it another shot.
Members and I arrive for the day to sign in. There is no sign in log, no badges and no staff to be found anywhere. So we take our gear to the rifle range and look for RSOs to let them know. No one on the range. One of the members goes on the hunt for a staff member. While he is looking, two RSOs come in at the end of the rifle range. Before we can even say anything, they start yelling at me for not having a badge...which is exactly what we were coming to talk to them about. So we calmly try to explain, but they accuse us of lying then threaten to have the members' memberships canceled. We finally disengage the raging RSOs and I eventually get a visitor badge. However the RSOs spent next 30 minutes harassing us on the firing line, coming over to the shooting benches and hovering, bumping, and randomly demanding us to "open and show clear" while in the middle of magazine...even moving my rifle, looking at serial numbers and picking up magazines without my permission during a cold range. Another member that was not part of our group noticed this and made a comment. He was kicked out for calling out the RSO.
That was the final straw. We packed up, left and the members filed a complaint with ARPC for the harassment and treatment of guests.
Fast forward a few months to the latest experience after the ARPC rep reached out to invite me back because of the previous bad experiences:
We arrived at ARPC. I re-read the rules, we sign in and I get my visitors pass, along with the names of the members I am with and clip it to my collar. We also make sure that these aren't the same RSOs as last time. Before we even get back to the truck to get our gear an RSO stops us to check ID. That's understandable, they need to verify the members and that I am their guest. Everything seemed routine other than he was miffed that one of the members had inadvertently put his member ID in his pocket. But then the RSO comes over to me and dresses me down like a drill sergeant because my visitor pass had flipped around backwards...and demands that the visitor pass must be visible at all times, and facing forward or I will be kicked out. I apologize and flip my badge around.
I'm starting to have dejavu...but...
After the RSO's additional demands that open our bags and show him what we have before removing them from the vehicle, we gather our gear and go to the rifle range, set up and start sighting in... As we are shooting a second RSO comes over to my bench and hovers over me so close that my brass is bouncing off of his crotch and hitting me in the face and shoulder. Then he demands to know if I am shooting an "illegal SBR". It's not. It's a pistol and I am not shouldering it. But he stands there until the range goes cold, watching to make sure I don't touch my shoulder... At one point reaching for my shoulder as if to check the gap. That invasion of space was starting to not be OK... So far I have done nothing wrong, and I haven't given anyone any attitude, but the RSOs apparently didn't like my visitor tag or my AR pistol, so I put the pistol away and go to the bathroom. As I come out of the bathroom, the first RSO accosts me again demanding to know which members I am there with, even though he just checked our ID 15 minutes earlier, I tell him their names again, show him my badge and point to the members I am with a few benches down who are in a conversation with the second RSO. The first RSO then starts yelling at me for going to the bathroom without a member present, and the fact that the corner of my badge was hidden by the collar of my jacket when he asked for my ID. He then goes to the members and starts yelling at them, too. I had no idea what's going on. I didn't know I had to have permission to use the bathroom or that I couldn't be more than a few yards away to from a member.
When I get back to the group I find out that their conversation was because the second RSO had been caught rifling through my range bags and cases without permission while I was in the bathroom.
Strike three. We packed up and left and my friends cancelled their memberships. We have not been back in two years and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Multiple experiences with staff members, months to years apart is not a coincidence.
Members invited me back to ARPC after a bad staff experience that had happened a few years earlier when an RSO interrupted the ARPC member who invented me to the shotgun range and told him that "guests weren't allowed". The member asked the RSO if he meant just for the skeet range. The RSO said "Not allowed anywhere". And asked us to leave.
The members who re invited me a few years later advise me to read the new rules ahead of time which I did. I asked them when ARPC started allowing guests again and they looked at me funny when I told them about the previous experience. They reassured me that is not how things are supposed to go at ARPC, so I agree to give it another shot.
Members and I arrive for the day to sign in. There is no sign in log, no badges and no staff to be found anywhere. So we take our gear to the rifle range and look for RSOs to let them know. No one on the range. One of the members goes on the hunt for a staff member. While he is looking, two RSOs come in at the end of the rifle range. Before we can even say anything, they start yelling at me for not having a badge...which is exactly what we were coming to talk to them about. So we calmly try to explain, but they accuse us of lying then threaten to have the members' memberships canceled. We finally disengage the raging RSOs and I eventually get a visitor badge. However the RSOs spent next 30 minutes harassing us on the firing line, coming over to the shooting benches and hovering, bumping, and randomly demanding us to "open and show clear" while in the middle of magazine...even moving my rifle, looking at serial numbers and picking up magazines without my permission during a cold range. Another member that was not part of our group noticed this and made a comment. He was kicked out for calling out the RSO.
That was the final straw. We packed up, left and the members filed a complaint with ARPC for the harassment and treatment of guests.
Fast forward a few months to the latest experience after the ARPC rep reached out to invite me back because of the previous bad experiences:
We arrived at ARPC. I re-read the rules, we sign in and I get my visitors pass, along with the names of the members I am with and clip it to my collar. We also make sure that these aren't the same RSOs as last time. Before we even get back to the truck to get our gear an RSO stops us to check ID. That's understandable, they need to verify the members and that I am their guest. Everything seemed routine other than he was miffed that one of the members had inadvertently put his member ID in his pocket. But then the RSO comes over to me and dresses me down like a drill sergeant because my visitor pass had flipped around backwards...and demands that the visitor pass must be visible at all times, and facing forward or I will be kicked out. I apologize and flip my badge around.
I'm starting to have dejavu...but...
After the RSO's additional demands that open our bags and show him what we have before removing them from the vehicle, we gather our gear and go to the rifle range, set up and start sighting in... As we are shooting a second RSO comes over to my bench and hovers over me so close that my brass is bouncing off of his crotch and hitting me in the face and shoulder. Then he demands to know if I am shooting an "illegal SBR". It's not. It's a pistol and I am not shouldering it. But he stands there until the range goes cold, watching to make sure I don't touch my shoulder... At one point reaching for my shoulder as if to check the gap. That invasion of space was starting to not be OK... So far I have done nothing wrong, and I haven't given anyone any attitude, but the RSOs apparently didn't like my visitor tag or my AR pistol, so I put the pistol away and go to the bathroom. As I come out of the bathroom, the first RSO accosts me again demanding to know which members I am there with, even though he just checked our ID 15 minutes earlier, I tell him their names again, show him my badge and point to the members I am with a few benches down who are in a conversation with the second RSO. The first RSO then starts yelling at me for going to the bathroom without a member present, and the fact that the corner of my badge was hidden by the collar of my jacket when he asked for my ID. He then goes to the members and starts yelling at them, too. I had no idea what's going on. I didn't know I had to have permission to use the bathroom or that I couldn't be more than a few yards away to from a member.
When I get back to the group I find out that their conversation was because the second RSO had been caught rifling through my range bags and cases without permission while I was in the bathroom.
Strike three. We packed up and left and my friends cancelled their memberships. We have not been back in two years and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Multiple experiences with staff members, months to years apart is not a coincidence.
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Thank you for the details. This does not sound like the demeanor from their RSO that they have strived for in the past.
Like I said I haven't been back in two years. For RSOs to come at guests, guns blazing like that (pardon the pun) and unprovoked, was rather alarming. I hope that those people no longer work at ARPC and it's improved. But it left such a bad taste that I am not sure I want to try a fourth time...
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I have spent a lot of time at shooting ranges around the country. At matches and as guests. I have only had a couple of bad experience's with RSO's. In both instances the RSO did not last long. But the other side of that is when the same people have problems with multiple RSO's.... it might be them!
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Elmore Leonard:
fill in the bubblegum blank edition
"If you run into an [REDACTED] in the morning, you ran into an [REDACTED]. If you run into [REDACTED] all day, you're the [REDACTED]."
These were actual events that happened. As witnessed by multiple people. I never once came to that range with any attitude, in fact I said little if anything even as the RSOs crossed the line multiple times and ramped up even as we tried to deescalate. For crap sake we are on a range with live firearms, that's not the place to roid out no matter who is at fault. And that's the thing about bullies, they don't need a reason to be a-holes. A little bit of power plus a lot of insecurity is all the rage fuel they need to pick on people they deem inferior. They also like to blame their victims as though they had it coming.
People can believe what the want. People can be offended if they want. I'm sure I'm not popular for sharing my experiences. I wish the club well. I'm done talking about this.
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Fair enough. I hope you are able to find a place (club) that resonates with you and makes you feel like you belong.
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Two year member, 30 something nonwhite person here. ARPC is pretty awesome. It's as close as you can get to the freedom of a public range with the all safety of a private range. No rapid fire limits and more 'permissive' ~25m bays.
1. Don't be a goober and ruin freedom for everyone else.
2. You might be the problem - at least try to give the appearance of being a chill dude and read the rule book.
3. Yes, there's probably a handful of off-duty cops/karens that are curious about your barrel length. (If you can't spot a sbr up close then get your eyes checked). Its happened to me.
4. Yes, try to be safe and actually use chamber flags.
5. Insurance is expensive and bad interactions with RSOs are probably an overreaction from a previous incident.
1. Don't be a goober and ruin freedom for everyone else.
2. You might be the problem - at least try to give the appearance of being a chill dude and read the rule book.
3. Yes, there's probably a handful of off-duty cops/karens that are curious about your barrel length. (If you can't spot a sbr up close then get your eyes checked). Its happened to me.
4. Yes, try to be safe and actually use chamber flags.
5. Insurance is expensive and bad interactions with RSOs are probably an overreaction from a previous incident.
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